Conservatives and Homosexuality

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That's just the problem with a LOT of people, and not just you.

Now, I can't speak for EVERY act of violence throughout history, but what little I read about in history class about the 1st Crusade, there was a general feeling that it was God's will to retake the Holy Land. As to whether it actually WAS God's will, we certainly DO know God didn't stand in their way. We also know that the motives for the successive crusades were largely inspired by greed. If so, God would not be above giving those people over to their enemies, repeating the patterns of struggle during the times of the Israelite judges and kings.

Inquisitions are also opposed to the will of God in that God wants the heart of the believer. A forced conversion only saves an unbeliever's head, not his soul, which is the ultimate concern. Had the church during this time actually EXAMINED scripture and not acted out of self-interest, history would have been written MUCH differently.

On the other hand, I still maintain that Christian are not and never were perfect people. The largely kinder, gentler version of the church is a result of millennia mistakes and lessons learned from them. That doesn't mean that we don't have a long way to go, and that also doesn't make us ALL evil.

One of the most disturbing incessant comments common to many Christians is their ease in determining what they term as "God's will". The hubris involved is overwhelming. Humans cannot even determine the will of a dolphin or an octopus or their pet cat but they speak so easily of their total familiarity with the mind of some immensely powerful Thing that created the universe and all within it with the ease we have in trimming our fingernails. It's the "Who me?" innocence offered when the incessant horrors out of militant religious people are brushed away as if this was some small aberration that couldn't possibly mar the absolute perfection of religious dogma that is unacceptable.Religious institutions and, in all probability, whoever cooked up the Bible were not and are not absolutely unsophisticated as to the nature of people and how the instruments of religion are more useful as instruments of power and control than any absolute morality. The attempt to divorce the laity from the current abysmal behavior of the Catholic officialdom is not a unique occurrence. Sure there are criticisms but where are the riots in the streets when decency and morality has been so viciously scarred? Morality is the absolute basic selling point of religion and it has failed repeatedly currently and throughout history in this mission. Isn't a couple of thousand years of this crap enough?

Well, you're absolutely right in a lot of ways and the problems you presented are justified.

I'll try to explain and be as brief as I can. Human beings have never been perfectly able to divine the will of God or, even when it was perfectly well spelled out for them, to even follow it.

You have examples of judges and kings who were just perfectly content to march out to war, because by golly we're GOD'S PEOPLE! But if they even met with success, it happened in such a way that was achieved at too great a cost. Most often it ended in disaster.

The instructions were always to consult God first. In the absence of a prophet or priest who received direct vision from God on those matters, there was a device that could determine the answer through chance, and there was an exact procedure for doing this. It wasn't a simple matter of flipping a coin (though some might seem to believe that's the approach some of our recent national leaders in declaring war). It was taken on faith that the results of "drawing lots" was indicative of God's will. Sometimes that's all they had to go on.

Many of us believe that with the Holy Spirit there is no longer a requirement to seek a priest with any special knowledge or qualification. The problem is that while we try to seek God on different matters, our minds are often clouded with our own personal interests and biases. We're only human, after all. And even if we GET an answer, we don't always accept it.

One experience I had that has had a profound impact on my life was my decision to leave home to realize my dream of studying music composition. Initially I applied to three different schools: DePaul, U Illinois Carbondale, SUNY-Potsdam (Crane School of Music). I felt so strongly about SUNY that I didn't bother completing my application to the other schools. Even though Crane is a public school, they don't just accept anybody to their graduate programs in areas like music theory and composition. This was further complicated by the fact that I'd had no formal training whatsoever in the area of theory and comp beyond the required courses for all music undergrads. All I had was a shot in the dark. My prayer was always "If this isn't what You want, don't open the door on this opportunity." I was madly in love with a lovely young lady, and I knew that being apart would not be the best thing for us.

I honestly did not believe I'd get accepted into that graduate program. So when I got my acceptance letter, I was in complete shock. Therein was my answer, and all I could do was simply have faith that everything would work out the way it was supposed to.

The lovely young lady was very patient with me, of course, and we have two children (a whole other story itself, but it goes along with what I've already said).

But as to whether I'm correctly ascertaining the will of God: From moment to moment, sure, it's a dicey affair. However, even when my wife and I have disagreed over some of the compulsions I've had at times, she has also come to understand why I feel the way I do. She is very often surprised when things just seem to work out in the most bizarre and unlikely ways. We didn't "plan" to have a daughter, for example, and early on that experience was fraught with uncertainty and unfortunate circumstances. Yet we can't imagine NOT having her. There is a certain "rightness" to her being here that we can't explain any other way than that she HAD to be here, despite a lot of the initial resentment we felt when we first found out she was on her way.

Can these kinds of things be explained any other way? Perhaps they could, but because of the experiences we've had, it's very difficult to imagine these things could have come about for any other reason than that is what God wanted for us.

It's my bedtime here and I want to get at least 4 hours rest since I have to rise early so my answer will be short. The ancient Greek consulted virgins druged by volcanic emissions nd Kings consulted old dodders and sometimes they were lucky and sometimes not. Perhaps we live amongst multiple universes and we can slip into those with favorable outcomes. There's no way at present to know. God is one improbable answer as are the other suggestions.

March 1st, 2010 - Dr. Elan Y. Karten and Dr. Jay C. Wade authored a study published in the Journal of Men's Studies investigating the social and psychological characteristics of men experiencing unwanted homosexual attractions seeking sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE). This study was based on Dr. Karten's doctoral dissertation at Fordham University, New York, under the direction of Dr. Jay Wade.

http://www.narth.com/docs/newsumm.html

Use Ockham's Razor and assume nature is at work doing what nature does.

ruveyn

yeah right...just like all those other ex gays out there...never works.

With Ockham we can knock 'em
We can sock 'em we can rock 'em
We can laugh at the sillies,
Watch 'em fall.
They think with their willies
Like a bunch of hilly billies
Not with the stuff in that brain
In their heads.
So, if you can't convince 'em
You'll just have to rinse 'em
And watch the guys go dripping down the drain.
Their senses are all wet
So, have no regret,
They're not smart enough
To come in from the rain.

Luke 18:

Modern "Conservatives" fill the role of the New Testament "Pharisees", and modern homosexuals fulfill the role of the New Testament's "Tax Collectors and Prostitutes."

Conservatives love to exalt themselves, and exalting themselves above Homosexuals (particularly by quoting Leviticus) is all too easy.

So, will I be seeing you Conservatives in Hell?

I am a British conservative, am agnostic and have no problem with homosexuality. I believe that instead of the inane idea of 'gay rights', 'lesbian rights' or indeed 'autistic rights' that we all deserve equal liberties and freedoms. LGBT people should have no less rights than any other section of the population but by that same token they should have no more either.

ok, let's pretend that you are an employer/landlord and i am a prospective employee/flat renter. you know that i'm gay because you saw me with my partner and we both had wedding bands and were obviously familiar, so if you were a homophobe, living in a anti-gay-rights regime, would you claim the [legal] right to exclude me from consideration from employment or residence merely by dint of my gayness? the whole concept of gay rights was one of public accomodation and elimination of overt hostility to basic civil liberties under cover of law. so if you believe that there should be no "special rights" does that mean you or anybody should have the legal right to exclude anybody else from public accomodations, for whatever reason? just wondering...
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things are just peaches and scream all over the place

I just learned the other night about James Dobson's co-founder of Focus on the Family, who was caught taking a trip to Europe with a male prostitute. Now, this gentleman, like Dobson and everyone else in their organization, is fanatically anti-gay, and believe homosexuality can be "cured." He claimed he was traveling with the boy toy in order to bring him to Christ..., and because he can't lift luggage himself following an operation. My wife and I both laughed hysterically.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The Cross could certainly be regarded as a phallic symbol.

In which case maybe the early Christians should have replaced it with a symbol that the historical Jesus more was crucified upon - a great big long solid black shaft of wood!

The cross is a rather neat symbol but to indicate that Christ was shafted perhaps has too many homosexual implications.

If Christ had been impaled instead of crucified, Christians would be wearing toothpicks around their necks.

ruveyn