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Do you believe God exists?
1) God is a being, that one can have a personal relationship. A person God. 30%  30%  [ 55 ]
2) God is an impersonal force that guides reality as it is. He decrees our laws of physics, but does not intervene to break them. 12%  12%  [ 22 ]
3) God does not exist. Reality can be explained by scientific inquiry and the scientific method in by itself. 33%  33%  [ 61 ]
4) I am not sure. There is the possibility that God does exist, or does not. We must follow the preponderance of evidence when drawing our conclusion. 25%  25%  [ 47 ]
Total votes : 185

Deltaville
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10 Mar 2016, 8:32 am

Deltaville wrote:
AspE wrote:
Deltaville wrote:

Even if one achieved the same ratio for critical variant electron and proton mass, the fine tune constants would still be astronomically high. Moreover the author fails to nullify the crucial importance of the fine tuned cosmological constant and the gravitation constant with extremely narrow bounds. I calculate that even then, the odds would still be ≈10^100 if one was to negate the proton and neutron ratio. Again, this discharges your argument.

The odds of what?

Perhaps these so-called constants are linked by a hitherto unknown symmetry, and they couldn't be otherwise. I'm not knowledgeable enough in this field to say. But the basic flaws in your argument still stand. We evolved to fit this universe, like the water to the pond in which it finds itself, not the other way around. And you can't discount that it could be arbitrary. All life sentient enough to comment on it's natural environment would necessarily find that environment suitable for the development of life. It's not evidence of a God.


Roger Penrose estimated that the chances of the universe's fine tuning to cultivate any STARS, and GALAXIES, and ultimately and LIFE is 1/10^10^123. Much higher then my estimate, and his calculation was done nearly a decade after Stenger's paper was released.

Atheist Physicists, Bernard Carr and Steven Weinberg both are clear on this issue: "If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning ... I think you'd really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or a multiverse."


To be honest, I think in the near future the religion and science debate will come to a complete close. If it is determined that the multiverse does in fact exist, the anthropic (cosmological fine tune argument will fail) and it
will be proven that we are nothing more than a cosmic coincidence. If it does not, the anthropic principle combined with the cosmological argument would make the notion of God a certainty, or at the very least, a respected scientific hypothesis. There will be no greater winner takes all scenario than this. There is no question that I hope for the former. Besides, our Universe is already as big as it is.

At this point, the best lead towards the so-called multiverse is the superstring theory. It is however, extremely unstable and untestable. It is more likely that AspE will declare his extreme dedication to the church and upload a video of his baptism, than any facet of the SST to be proven in a laboratory setting.


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10 Mar 2016, 8:52 am

To be honest, even the "proof" of a "multiverse" would not shake my belief that a Mind lies behind it all.


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 Mar 2016, 8:55 am

NoahYates wrote:
To be honest, even the "proof" of a "multiverse" would not shake my belief that a Mind lies behind it all.


I really doubt that a multiverse exists. Really. The whole notion of the multiverse is to simply dodge the cosmological argument and anthropic principle in the most scientific effort possible. It is an ad hoc hypothesis, that is doomed to be fully untestable.


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10 Mar 2016, 8:58 am

The whole notion of the multiverse is really anchored upon whether the M-Theory has any pragmatic functionality, if so, it must accurately describe quantum entanglement and maintain agreement with classical mechanics. But above all, the so-called 11 dimensions that it proposes MUST be subject to test. I think Jono knows more about this subject than I do. Four of the dimensions are easily subject to test, the other seven though, hehehe that is a completely different story.


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10 Mar 2016, 9:09 am

Here is an excerpt from Standford PR

Quote:
...Despite the similarities between Vilenkin’s theory and the Wikipedia summary of the film Interstellar, many scientists have hope for the multiverse theory.


Christ, I pray they are wrong.


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10 Mar 2016, 9:35 am

Also.. people forget and/or misunderstand the nature of explanation in science. The laws of physics are descriptions... abstract descriptions of what is happening. They do not cause anything. I love John Lennox's analogy of "Aunt Matilda's cake." The basic idea is that science asks a very narrow range of questions. These questions and explanations are analogous to studying the the "syntax" of a dance... and then trying to extrapolate to assume that the "dancing" itself is merely a secondary, latent, emergent phenomenon with no purpose. Or analyzing a poem in terms of the shapes of the letters instead of comprehending the layers of communication of meaning.

In addition, too many people seem unaware of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and its implications. (From my understanding of Kant, he basically arrived at the same conclusion from a different path (again something that lends to my judgement of truth in weighing this whole question of what we can know anything about God.) Leibniz's contingency argument also gives you a description of God out of logical necessity....


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 Mar 2016, 3:02 pm

NoahYates wrote:
Alan understands the same truth I do. If you consider yourself an atheist and an Alan Watts lover, then you need to go back and listen to him again. Alan is one of the my greatest spiritual teachers. All he does is talk about God. If you cannot see that then you completely miss the point.

At a certain level of liberal interpretation of the word God, it's practically atheism. Pantheism is pretty much atheist. But I happen to think minds are special, especially the subjective experience of being one, and it's unlike the rest of the universe, if I may draw an artificial boundary around it. Regardless of the superficial similarities in appearance, (and certain quantum theories) the network of stars and galaxies are not and cannot be in communication like our neurons are.



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10 Mar 2016, 3:13 pm

Deltaville wrote:
drlaugh wrote:
Many people I have known who say they are Jewish are what I call social Jewish. Sort of like those called Chreasters. They go to church on Christmas Easter and Chili Pot lucks.
I was a Hebrew School drop out.

The above is not sarcastic. Just my experience.

Another thought is
Yes there are hypocrites in religious circles. Yes if you let them get between you and God, guess whose closer.


Another thought
Your God and my God might not be the same but I bet they are friends.

Of all the above I believe the last one the least.


My dad was Jewish, my mom is Catholic. I consider myself a Christian of Jewish heritage. From what I understand, Reform Judaism allows its members to not believe in God.

@AspE, are you against Jewish rituals? Do you oppose any in particular?

I've taken part in a few holiday rituals (some of my relatives are more practicing than my immediate family), but I'm very cynical about it. The whole exodus story is probably false. I'm a huge fan of blasphemy, and I think circumcision of infants should be a crime. So, I'm barely Jewish, although I have a buttload of Israeli cousins, and I used to speak Hebrew when I was a kid.



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10 Mar 2016, 3:28 pm

Alan was not a pantheist either.... like me, and Spinoza, the "ism" which would best describe his ontology would be panentheism.... the difference is profound.


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10 Mar 2016, 3:53 pm

Deltaville wrote:

Roger Penrose estimated that the chances of the universe's fine tuning to cultivate any STARS, and GALAXIES, and ultimately and LIFE is 1/10^10^123. Much higher then my estimate, and his calculation was done nearly a decade after Stenger's paper was released.

Atheist Physicists, Bernard Carr and Steven Weinberg both are clear on this issue: "If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning ... I think you'd really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or a multiverse."

So we live in a multiverse. And by the way, the chances of me existing, with my unique set of DNA, would also seem to be just as small, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen.



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10 Mar 2016, 3:59 pm

Deltaville wrote:
The whole notion of the multiverse is really anchored upon whether the M-Theory has any pragmatic functionality, if so, it must accurately describe quantum entanglement and maintain agreement with classical mechanics. But above all, the so-called 11 dimensions that it proposes MUST be subject to test. I think Jono knows more about this subject than I do. Four of the dimensions are easily subject to test, the other seven though, hehehe that is a completely different story.

They don't necessarily have to occur simultaneously. It's enough that universes arise with seemingly random properties, and the ones in which life can occur can also contain cosmologists and theologians.



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10 Mar 2016, 4:02 pm

AspE wrote:
Regardless of the superficial similarities in appearance, (and certain quantum theories) the network of stars and galaxies are not and cannot be in communication like our neurons are.


Once again... I refer you to the series of videos to explain why you are correct in this assertion, and why I, and many others, disagree with you on the conclusion to be drawn from it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOXZGnY ... 9D03D88AA5


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 Mar 2016, 4:19 pm

AspE wrote:
Deltaville wrote:

Roger Penrose estimated that the chances of the universe's fine tuning to cultivate any STARS, and GALAXIES, and ultimately and LIFE is 1/10^10^123. Much higher then my estimate, and his calculation was done nearly a decade after Stenger's paper was released.

Atheist Physicists, Bernard Carr and Steven Weinberg both are clear on this issue: "If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning ... I think you'd really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or a multiverse."

So we live in a multiverse. And by the way, the chances of me existing, with my unique set of DNA, would also seem to be just as small, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen.


This vehicle of thinking is inherently problematic because you are now trying to hold onto a predetermined conclusion in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As I have mentioned, the whole notion of the multiverse is on life support, that is being the superstring theory, which is already built upon a contended foundation.


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10 Mar 2016, 4:31 pm

Deltaville wrote:
AspE wrote:
Deltaville wrote:

Roger Penrose estimated that the chances of the universe's fine tuning to cultivate any STARS, and GALAXIES, and ultimately and LIFE is 1/10^10^123. Much higher then my estimate, and his calculation was done nearly a decade after Stenger's paper was released.

Atheist Physicists, Bernard Carr and Steven Weinberg both are clear on this issue: "If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning ... I think you'd really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or a multiverse."

So we live in a multiverse. And by the way, the chances of me existing, with my unique set of DNA, would also seem to be just as small, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen.


This vehicle of thinking is inherently problematic because you are now trying to hold onto a predetermined conclusion in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As I have mentioned, the whole notion of the multiverse is on life support, that is being the superstring theory, which is already built upon a contended foundation.



Exactly... it is dangerously close to its own "God-of-the-gaps" sort of reasoning. "One day science will have explained away God... just wait" In fact, this sort of misunderstanding of science is circular reasoning, because the claim that science is the source of all truth and knowledge is not a scientific statement... its a philosophical speculation.


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“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts


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10 Mar 2016, 4:38 pm

NoahYates wrote:
Deltaville wrote:
AspE wrote:
Deltaville wrote:

Roger Penrose estimated that the chances of the universe's fine tuning to cultivate any STARS, and GALAXIES, and ultimately and LIFE is 1/10^10^123. Much higher then my estimate, and his calculation was done nearly a decade after Stenger's paper was released.

Atheist Physicists, Bernard Carr and Steven Weinberg both are clear on this issue: "If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning ... I think you'd really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or a multiverse."

So we live in a multiverse. And by the way, the chances of me existing, with my unique set of DNA, would also seem to be just as small, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen.


This vehicle of thinking is inherently problematic because you are now trying to hold onto a predetermined conclusion in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As I have mentioned, the whole notion of the multiverse is on life support, that is being the superstring theory, which is already built upon a contended foundation.



Exactly... it is dangerously close to its own "God-of-the-gaps" sort of reasoning. "One day science will have explained away God... just wait"


The same condition applies for anyone that argues that God exists. This is not a disadvantage that is circumscribed to those who wish to argue against the existence of God.


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10 Mar 2016, 4:39 pm

Deltaville wrote:
This vehicle of thinking is inherently problematic because you are now trying to hold onto a predetermined conclusion in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As I have mentioned, the whole notion of the multiverse is on life support, that is being the superstring theory, which is already built upon a contended foundation.

I'm actually not doing anything of the sort, as it still beats anything supernatural, which has never before been required to explain any observations. And like I said, a plethora of mini-universes within one larger meta-universe doesn't necessarily require multiple dimensions. They could be separated by mere time and space.