Incel terrorism

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If I identify with the label, and someone else who identifies with that label misbehaves in the name of that philosophy or practice, then I feel like I have an obligation to respond. In the case of Barchan's comment, I didn't think that it rose to the level where I needed to do so. I took it as a polemical jab, and I'll often let those slide.

I think that you guys have a point, in the abstract. Your way of presenting it, however, appeals only to your little clique. Also, the whining irritates everyone.

Ultimately, I have the ability to do the 1000 things I need to do to order my life and have a good shot at finding a relationship. I just lack the executive function energy to allocate to that task. I've found it easier, and harder. Barchan has a point, too, in that part of that work involves getting outside my complaints, and showing a positive attitude and interest in other people. Most of the responses include a lot of negativity of that nature. So, check yourselves.

I have the feeling some people use the most broad definitions they can find so that they can show contempt for all unsuccessful losers while hiding behind the incel criticism, and they get a wicked pleasure from it.
For example look at this article Boo quoted in the first page:

I'd also suggest that worldviews based on what effects oneself directly tend to be deeply skewed. Yes it's life experience, yes it's highly useful in governing one's daily affairs, it's less helpful when trying to figure out what things should be like across the board for people like you and not like you, your gender and not your gender.

I can't remember who I listen to who said this, it might have been Sam, but the idea is that policy should be built from the standpoint of a hypothetical outsider who is about the be born on this planet who has no idea what gender they'll be, no idea what race they'll be, whether they'll be rich or poor, have good or bad parenting, disability or no disability, and whether they'll be religious or nonreligious and if religious what religion they'd be born into and what level of intensity.

I think that's where we have something of a responsibility to state our ideas clearly to people we disagree with, and they have an equal responsibility and equally we have a responsibility to ask well-aimed questions toward understanding where whoever we're talking to is coming from. I reread this thread a few nights ago and caught a few places where I thought I might have bounced or posted in a mood too colored by something I watched. Going forward in threads like this I might make an aim to do that (ie. reread from the beginning) more often and see if I can diagnose where I might be failing in communicating effectively or where I could have asked better questions of someone I'm finding myself disagreeing with. If these just fall into tribalism or type-casting it means the conversation gets torpedoed and a lot of potential for actually learning new things goes out the window as well.

How does this respond to my post? I sincerely don't know if you mean that you consider me one of the people trying to tar all nerds with the Incel brush.

Speaking as a nerd, I am not.

Lots of people like a vicious burn more than a coherent argument. See the L&D troll crew fmi. It seems like a sad but inevitable part of human nature. I laugh, also, but try not to feed that impulse. Check yourself.

It wasn't about you. You were talking about Barchan's post, I disagree and I responded with the impressions it had given me.

I find it really hard to understand why some of you guys don't see that some of us are actually afraid of being murdered because these guys have murdered before. People were murdered by a self-proclaimed incel not far from where I live, he targeted as many women as he could with that van, and he did it with no warning in broad daylight on a busy street. Maybe some people are legitimately afraid this is going to happen again? Wouldn't you be if murderers had been targeting men where you live? Is it so hard to imagine that, being afraid of being run over or shot in the street just for existing? Because that's how I feel lately, knowing these guys are out there and that they congregate on the internet and canonize Minassian and Rodgers and push each other to commit more violence like they did.

Some of us are legitimately and understandably afraid of more violence because REAL VIOLENCE, the real MURDER of real human beings, happened near our homes. It's not a "dark delight" to make fun of incel murderers, I want to understand them because I want to do what I can to make them stop killing people where I live.

We were having a discussion about how "incels," and other expressions of misogyny, manifest in our culture and cause issues for women, but, unsurprisingly, some posters have found a way to make it all about men.

Frankly, I've about had it with WP for the moment, and will most likely be taking a vacation.

Islam is a religion with well-defined beliefs and tenets that some people warp to fit their twisted views. "Incel" is a modern word with a wishy-washy definition that has something/kinda/sorta something to do with men who can't get laid.

Not really the same thing. I don't bat an eye when someone says, "I hate crazy, man-hating feminists!" because (besides not being a feminist) I'm not a crazy man-hater. If you're not one of the woman-hating, douche incels who commit violent acts, then don't get the vapors whenever someone mentions women-hating, douche incels who commit violent acts.

Not difficult.

Maybe it's just that we all agree about incels and there is nothing to say about them, really. On the other hand I don't see why we shouldn't object if we feel that some poster has been unfair or overzealous about something.
At least it's what I was talking about, I don't understand why some guys posted some stuff here and I won't respond for it, because I don't even fully understand their posts.

It's fine when a distinction is being made. I'm not an incel, but the thing that separates incels from just people who can't get laid is the impact it has on them. Most people I think could at the very least cope with never ever having a sexual relationship. The incels are struggling and failing to cope. If they get together they can talk about this with people who understand them and what they're going through. Now as for the ones full of resentful hostility, I'm not sure what can be done about them. As like when someone gets inundated with death threats, it's really rare one of the threats was sincere. If you find a load of bile from incels, violent fantasies and such, it will almost certainly be all hot air with no intent behind it. So might as well just leave them to it when they're not going to actually do anything. Even if there was someone in there saying what they were going to do before they did it, how could you know? Like how could you identify a sincere death threat out of 200 insincere ones? Obviously the law must deal with any who commit criminal acts, but I don't know how you can prevent it in the first place.

If they use that space to promote violence do they deserve to be able to get together and do that? I don't think that is a legitimate function of an online forum or support group, to foster violent hatred. That's why websites that host the promotion of violence get taken down, like some white supremacist sites have and other kinds of terrorists like ISIS. If the result of them getting together online is the increase of violent acts committed by people claiming to be part of their ideology who were radicalized by their online platform then they don't deserve to be able to get together online. Organizations like the FBI understand this and that's why they investigate such groups and it's why most media platforms have policies about not hosting or allowing violently hateful content.

This is a problem with all potentially violent groups, not just incels.

I don't support grabbing any guy who can't get laid as a potentially violent attacker, but it is worth discussion when these idiots organize and spread their crap far and wide.

To be clear: I absolutely do not support mass action against lonely single men.

Some incel forums will ban this kind of thing on sight. And if you do get actual serious incitement of violence as opposed to just fantasising and venting, I wouldn't have a problem with it being shut down. But that alone wouldn't solve it. I don't know about the guy who's killings started the thread, but Rodger would have ended up doing it anyway whether online or not.

It does relate to all men, though. If we look at root causes and possible solutions, men have to stop enforcing toxic masculinity on each other. Also, some of these people might like gay sex, if they tried it. They won't try it, as long as they stick with their unworkable masculine ideals.

It ('toxic' masculinity) is something of an emergent phenomena. I think the good news - if we can stave off war, stave off needing to kill for food, and stave off any sort of major civil unrest where that would need to be called on for men, women, and children alike surviving other men, it likely will go increasingly dormant. It typically comes into focus when the world needs heroes, and when the world needs heroes its not a good day for anyone.

Bonnie Tyler is still searching for her hero....