Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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Now I remember.
Mikah believes in a Russia that is free of corruption, respects human rights, tells the truth, values human life and is perfectly happy limiting their activities to their borders.
So of course, compared to this Russia, USA are indeed evil.
The problem is, Santa does not exist.

Did this post fall through from last year or something?

There's so much obviously wrong with it that I struggle to believe anyone could actually believe it.

For one thing, it is the invasion that you've been cheering on for the past year that has "sacrificed Ukraine's future". The US is Ukraine's ally; that alliance has been hugely beneficial to Ukraine. It isn't the Americans who have bombed Ukraine, shot civilians, destroyed infrastructure - it is the Russians. Nobody is to blame for the Russian invasion except Russia. I don't even really blame the Western fascists such as yourself who cheerlead for every attempt by Putin's fascist mob to expand its empire.

Your precious Aryan leader is getting his ass handed to him by the Ukrainians. You thought you were going to take Kyiv in the first few days of the war, and you lost most of your best soldiers in the attempt. You have been driven back out of Kharkiv oblast and Kherson city. You're losing badly, and your original goal of overthrowing the Ukrainian state is in tatters. Best you can hope for is that maybe some sort of truce ends up being signed where you get to keep Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk - except now everyone else in Europe has united against Russia and Belarus. You've pushed more countries towards NATO and now everyone is taking Russian aggression more seriously, while also being aware of what an incompetent paper tiger the Russian military is. Putin's aspirations upon Tallinn and Riga look impossible now.



You can ignore the rest of the post if you wish ^ but I would like an answer to that question. If you can at least understand why someone might think a Ukraine where Yanukovych was not illegally overthrown (whether foreign powers were involved or not) might be a better place and definitely not a war zone - then you are most of the way to understanding my position and my anger at the USA, the EU, my own country and everyone else for their hand in this avoidable disaster.


To quote yourself- you know full well that nobody outside of your white separatist pro-Kremlin paleoconservative circle is ever going to believe this, so why bother?

It's obviously completely batshit to say that the US is even remotely comparable to Russia on this front. When was the last time the US tried to annex another territory? It just doesn't happen.

It's also completely batshit to blame Russia's invasion on the US. Russia is not an automaton. A sensible, moral government would accept that other countries have the right to choose who they ally with. Putin is not a sensible, moral individual, so he wishes to subjugate his neighbouring countries to his will.


The US doesn't have imperial ambitions in Ukraine.

There is no "mission to destabilise the Russosphere and encircle Russia". The US has not invaded Belarus or Kazakhstan or Armenia or indeed any country bordering Russia.

The Russians aren't interested in a settlement, and in any case, the US is not fighting the war. The Russians invaded Ukraine. Obviously the Ukrainians are not going to surrender, because they are fighting an enemy who wants to subjugate them - it is existential. On the other hand, if Russia surrendered and retreated to their borders then the war would be over.

Given that the Russians are the ones damaging Ukraine, the moral responsibility for rebuilding should lie with Russia. However, I think we all know who will actually pay for it. Compare how the US rebuilt Western Europe and Japan after WWII to how the Soviets failed to rebuild Eastern Europe.


Let's compare Ukraine to Iraq.

Ukraine was a free, democratic country, with a reasonable human rights record, no record of military aggression, that gave up its WMDs, and was not engaged in genocide.

Iraq was an absolute dictatorship, with an awful human rights record, that had invaded two of its neighbours and threatened more, where ethnic minorities were persecuted and killed, and with a track record of using chemical weapons.

Does that necessarily mean that the invasion of Iraq was justified? No. I happen to think it was, but reasonable minds may differ. What no reasonable person would ever conclude is that the Russian attack on Ukraine has been in any way justified.

I also think there are a great deal of cases where the pretext for war is the same as the real reason. Afghanistan is a pretty clear recent example. Libya, too. Kosovo, Bosnia, Sierra Leone. WWII, of course. Even something as controversial as Vietnam... say what you want about American motives, whether they were fighting a fight that they should have been fighting, whether they were complacent, but the US leadership was at least clear that it wanted to seem powerful in the fight against communism. They didn't contrive something, they just gave their questionable reason.

Western fascists such as yourself

Your precious Aryan leader

I am of course a Nazi and fighting on the front lines with my Führer, Putin. The media usually don't go quite as far as you just did though lol.

I see you dodged the same important question magz did. Can you honestly say that Ukraine and Ukrainians are better off now - with Ukraine a demographically decrepit, smoking war zone and much of the population living in exile - than they were under somewhat-Russia-friendly Yanukovych?

You did not ask this question directly to me.

Ukraine was much better off a year ago than at Yanukovych's time.

Turn it any way, Russia is the destructive power in this part of the world - both with the way Yanukovych ruled Ukraine and with what they're doing now.

Yes but that was on the way to where we are today. The overthrow of Yanukovych was the turning point.

There are no solutions only trade-offs. Peace with your monster - if that's what it is, is better than war with it no?

You still haven't technically answered the question.

So why do you have such a problem with our prefered trade-off of being allied with USA?

Technically - on the ground worse but better prospects for the long-term future.

Poland's tradeoff?

A questionable future. And it's only for those who survive. <-- not something to be forgotten I think

Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Baltic States, Czechia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Turkey, Ukraine...

Because it very predictably lead us to exactly where we are. Russia hostile, Ukraine in ruins. The wider global consequences we know about and are living through are bad enough, the consequences yet to come are likely to be even worse.

And around and around the argument goes...

And around and around the argument goes...