US Healthcare reform

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ruveyn
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15 Aug 2009, 9:46 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

That is your choice, and your right. I respect that; I still find it a selfish philosophy. I don't live -for- others, but I do not find pleasure in the suffering of others, or find it acceptable to ignore their needs, either.

M.

I delight in the suffering and failure of evil and unjust people. For good hearted and well intentioned people it pains me to some degree to see them badly dealt with. This is garden variety empathy. I see myself in their situation and feel accordingly. Empathy is as natural as breathing. The real trick is not to let empathy cause one's logic and sense of self interest to be overcome by pity and compassion.

Like you (I suppose) I cheer for the Good Guys.

ruveyn

makuranososhi
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15 Aug 2009, 10:04 pm

Even in the evil and unjust, I find no celebration in their demise - at best, there might be relief. I have sympathy for any who suffer; I won't say empathy, as I do not find myself seeing it through their eyes... at best, it is an analytic empathy. We both cheer for those we support; the difference, I think, is what remains in the aftermath for each of us, and the level we find acceptable and justified to meet specific ends.

M.

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My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.

For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

zer0netgain
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16 Aug 2009, 9:52 am

makuranososhi wrote:

This is the problem with looking at history with modern eyes; when that document was written, what little "healthcare" that existed was mostly folk medicine or outright quackery. You presume that these gentlemen would know the future of medicine? The Constitution was not designed to be the inflexible cutting board that it has become in the past century, in my opinion... a healthy government develops with its' citizenry; those which become rigid eventually fracture and collapse under their own weight.

And the failure of your approach is that the created the Constitution with a LEGAL way to MODIFY it to reflect such changes.

You want government in charge of health care? PASS AN AMENDMENT! Anything less is the government seizing power not legally granted to it. If the people feel in sufficient number (must be a super majority) that the government should have this power, they will grant it via the amendment process. If they don't, well, the people have spoken and that is that.

You can not argue law and ethic in the same line.

The law says there is NO POSITIVE DUTY to do something for someone unless codified in law or contract. Ethically, you may feel otherwise, but what right do you have to impose your sense of ethics on everyone else? That's infringing on other people's rights to their own conscience. You might as well craft a state religion, but oh, that's right, such is prohibited in the Constitution as well.

You have no duty to rescue a person, but should you choose to and do them harm, it is possible you could be held accountable for negligence because once you commit to do something, you accept the responsibilities that come with it.

makuranososhi
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16 Aug 2009, 10:42 am

zer0netgain wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

Actually, Good Samaritan laws make doing nothing a crime in Arizona - there are similar laws on the books in other states. The government has already seized power that does not belong to it under the terms of the original documents; while I agree that the method is built it, it too was not designed for a future that could not be foreseen. Similarly, there have been radical changes is the rights of states vs. the federal government which has made making regional changes more challenging. So I appreciate your argument, but suggest that there is more than one perspective on this.

Yes, I can argue law and ethics; just not as part of the same argument. Ethically, I believe that we have a responsibility to each other; legally, I think we are fatally flawed yet still have a duty to those around us. One can make their own choice; support the whole of society, or watch until it reaches a breaking point and starts to self-consume. I prefer the former... others, the latter. I've not demanded that you feel as I do, but I will argue that your position is not humane or effective.

M.

ruveyn
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16 Aug 2009, 11:02 am

makuranososhi wrote:

I've not demanded that you feel as I do, but I will argue that your position is not humane or effective.

Your version of humane is a suicide pact with stupidity. We haven't got the resources to help every miserable person in need.

ruveyn

Sand
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16 Aug 2009, 11:15 am

ruveyn wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

I've not demanded that you feel as I do, but I will argue that your position is not humane or effective.

Your version of humane is a suicide pact with stupidity. We haven't got the resources to help every miserable person in need.

ruveyn

Especially if we spend our resources dumping trillions on financial crooks, buying scads of useless jet fighters costing billions, fighting endless wars with no chance of success, and a few other insanities.

CRACK
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29 Aug 2009, 4:46 pm

I am thoroughly against any socialist Health Care system cropping up in the US.

Citizens of a free nation should have equal opportunity to take care of THEMSELVES, not having Big Brother looking after them like they are children. And by "equal opportunity" I don't mean getting whatever services you want/need regardless of ability to pay, I mean acquiring and paying for services without discrimination based on gender/race/religion/etc.

ed
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29 Aug 2009, 5:26 pm

CRACK wrote:

You and ruveyn oughtta get along real well :lol:

phil777
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29 Aug 2009, 5:27 pm

^ Agreed with the above.

Tollorin
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29 Aug 2009, 7:30 pm

CRACK wrote:

I live in Canada and I can say there is no discrimination with universal healthcare. It's not the govnerment who decide if you need healtcare or not. Once you had presented your health card you're gonna receive healthcare until you're healed (or die...) to the sastifaction of the doctors no matter what.

ruveyn
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29 Aug 2009, 10:10 pm

Tollorin wrote:

right. Just take a number and wait your turn.

ruveyn

phil777
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29 Aug 2009, 10:16 pm

Well, unless it's life threatening, the process goes rather fast ruveyn =.=. And i should know, having benefited from said system a few times. (A few stitches, one minor surgery...)

Cyanide
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30 Aug 2009, 1:27 am

phil777 wrote:

Well, unless it's life threatening, the process goes rather fast ruveyn =.=. And i should know, having benefited from said system a few times. (A few stitches, one minor surgery...)

When it's life threatening, that's when you NEED it to go fast...

Sand
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30 Aug 2009, 1:39 am

Cyanide wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Well, unless it's life threatening, the process goes rather fast ruveyn =.=. And i should know, having benefited from said system a few times. (A few stitches, one minor surgery...)

When it's life threatening, that's when you NEED it to go fast...

Are there no emergency rooms in Canada?

ruveyn
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30 Aug 2009, 3:15 am

Sand wrote:

Cyanide wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Well, unless it's life threatening, the process goes rather fast ruveyn =.=. And i should know, having benefited from said system a few times. (A few stitches, one minor surgery...)

When it's life threatening, that's when you NEED it to go fast...

Are there no emergency rooms in Canada?

The idea is to treat the problems before they become life-threatening.

Take a number and wait your turn.

ruveyn

Sand
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30 Aug 2009, 3:27 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

Cyanide wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Well, unless it's life threatening, the process goes rather fast ruveyn =.=. And i should know, having benefited from said system a few times. (A few stitches, one minor surgery...)

When it's life threatening, that's when you NEED it to go fast...

Are there no emergency rooms in Canada?

The idea is to treat the problems before they become life-threatening.

Take a number and wait your turn.

ruveyn

Which is what I do in Finland and the system works for me with no problems.

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