What do you think about abortion

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LKL
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06 Jul 2013, 12:05 am

AngelRho wrote:

Max000 wrote:

Death Penalty Retains Support, Even With Pro-Life Catholics

Seems like you're not even reading your own sources. The official position of the Catholic Church is anti-death-penalty. Even the article mentions that. All you've proven is that American Catholics have a difference of opinion with the Vatican on one issue. So what?

What the Catholic church says and what it does tend to be two very different things.

LKL
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06 Jul 2013, 12:07 am

punkguy378 wrote:

Sorry but rape like this was not happening 15 years age.

You are not correct. At all. Not even remotely.

LKL
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06 Jul 2013, 12:11 am

wittgenstein wrote:

In my opinion, anyone that thinks it is OK to abort one second before birth is evil. Anyone that thinks it is not OK to abort one second after conception is an idiot. The debate is all about where to draw the line in a grey area. Similarly, suppose I have a full head of hair. I remove one hair every second. When is the exact moment I become bald? When is the exact second a fetus becomes human? And that for me is where the debate is.

Aborting 'one second before birth' is already illegal, especially since "one second before birth," the neonate is already well into the birth canal and the mother may have been in labor for several days. Try "one week before birth" for the same moral impact but less hyperbole.

LKL
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06 Jul 2013, 12:13 am

wittgenstein wrote:

My views about abortion were explained ( scroll back 4 posts). My views about adoption? If a kid wants to know who his mom is,let him know! In other words, I do not want to punish a female (or anyone) for indiscriminate sex. However, the least she can do is acknowledge her son's existence! If "she" denies motherhood, she denies being human and so therefore the human ethical logic no longer applies to her. In other words, if a kid wants to know who his mother is,her rights mean crap! That is the least she can do.
Adoption secrecy is a lie that harms both mother and child!

Sometimes women who get pregnant by rape either choose not to report the crime, or they lose their case when it comes to trial; if that's the case, and the woman decides to go through with a pregnancy anyway, it's probably better for both if they never see or hear from each other if she gives the kid up for adoption.

LKL
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06 Jul 2013, 12:15 am

Shatbat wrote:

LKL wrote:

In my hypothetical scenario, my mother agreed to be hooked up to me for 9 months. That is, she agreed to be my life support, made a voluntary choice... and then changed her mind. As is her right.

People choose to get into cars and drive all the time, but we don't refuse them medical care when they then get into an accident and need it... nor do we force them to donate blood or organs to their children, if they also chose to bring their children along and got them involved in the same accident.

Actually, I'd say in your hypothetical that once your mother gave her informed consent to hooking you up to her for nine months (and you probably know all the implications that come with "informed consent") then she'd have a moral duty to follow through unless it greatly interferes with her health and well being to a great degree. First of all, she would be robbing you of the chance to hooking up to someone else who actually goes by their word (unless she was a reluctant last resort and the initial agreement was something like "I didn't want to do this, I'll try but I won't promise anything".) I'd even argue that in that hypothetical, where she makes her choice, she'd be giving up part of her autonomy as there would be now two actual people depending on that body, and until the situation changes she should take the best interest of both when using that body. I wouldn't extend this logic to zefs, but it makes sense to me in this situation.

So the state should intervene if my mother were to try to separate herself? It should punish doctors for helping her unhook herself, or punish my mother after the fact for unhooking herself?

zer0netgain
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06 Jul 2013, 5:46 am

Shatbat wrote:

LKL wrote:

This is legally correct.

If I was in mortal peril and someone VOLUNTEERED to use their body to sustain mine, they CAN NOT change their mind once that begins absent their own health and safety being in peril if they continue. The reason why is because while there is no legal duty to rescue someone ONCE YOU BEGIN A RESCUE, you become legally liable if you abandon your patient.

Choosing to kick someone off support after you chose to support them must be done by a court order to ensure you are acting within your rights. To just cut the cord and let the person die because you change your mind would be treated as an act of murder because you KNEW terminating your role would end the other person's life.

Nobody could force you to step forward and do anything, but once you CHOSE to do it, you took on an obligation that can only be terminated by due process of law. Your "parasite" has a right to have you complete what you chose to begin.

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06 Jul 2013, 6:47 am

zer0netgain wrote:

I don't see the relevance to the abortion debate.

When you get pregnant, you can CHOOSE not to stay pregnant. Thanks to abortion.

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AngelRho
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06 Jul 2013, 6:59 am

LKL wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Max000 wrote:

Death Penalty Retains Support, Even With Pro-Life Catholics

What the Catholic church says and what it does tend to be two very different things.

Irrelevant.

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06 Jul 2013, 7:04 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

I don't see the relevance to the abortion debate.

When you get pregnant, you can CHOOSE not to stay pregnant. Thanks to abortion.

The relevance is that abortion means terminating a human life. Just like unhooking someone from this hypothetical life support would mean terminating a human life. And in both contexts, said "unhooking" is tantamount to murder.

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06 Jul 2013, 8:29 am

AngelRho wrote:

The relevance is that abortion means terminating a human life.

Uh. No.

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The_Walrus
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06 Jul 2013, 9:10 am

This conversation will go at cross purposes as long as the two sides are unable to agree on a definition of "human".

The pro-choicers think that "human" life is determined by some kind of mental state, whereas the anti-abortionists think it is determined by human DNA or some inherent humanity such as a soul.

If we want to have an honest discussion, we should speak in terms such as "I don't think having human DNA alone makes you valuable", and "I don't think consciousness is important". Alternatively, "I think consciousness is more important than species" or "I think members of my species alone are important".

(I have far more respect for "all life is sacred" than "humans are sacred", as long as you are consistent with that position)

Max000
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06 Jul 2013, 1:57 pm

AngelRho wrote:

LKL wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Max000 wrote:

Death Penalty Retains Support, Even With Pro-Life Catholics

What the Catholic church says and what it does tend to be two very different things.

Irrelevant.

No it is not.

ruveyn
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06 Jul 2013, 2:54 pm

Abortion is sometimes a sad necessity. Birth control is the better option.

ruveyn

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06 Jul 2013, 6:10 pm

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06 Jul 2013, 6:12 pm

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06 Jul 2013, 6:13 pm

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