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Danielismyname
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20 May 2007, 8:18 am

I’d say it’s hypocritical to marry in a church if you don’t live to its tenets (whether they’re deluded or not is moot). It doesn’t affect me in the slightest if you get married to whomever, so I don’t put thought on that which doesn’t concern me.

I think I already said this on a previous page..., but I'm unsure.



Sopho
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20 May 2007, 8:21 am

Danielismyname wrote:
I’d say it’s hypocritical to marry in a church if you don’t live to its tenets

Plenty of straight people do that as well. Do you think every single straight couple who marry in a church are completely Christian? No one's talking about marrying in a church anyway. I'm atheist. I think Christianity is shite, therefore there's absolutely no way in hell I'd want to get married in a church. I'd rather shoot myself. We want legal marriage, not religious marriage.



Danielismyname
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20 May 2007, 8:30 am

Sopho wrote:
Tangible stuff.


Of course they're hypocritical..., it was pretty much implied (said actually) in my post. :wink:

Legal marriage and the legal benefits that it entails should be expanded to everyone; to do less is to show ignorance, prejudice and idiocy. But then, my voice is nothing compared to the idiots who run the place, and I've learnt to accept them for who and what they are, i.e., social sheep who're afraid of that which they don't know.



ascan
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20 May 2007, 8:32 am

Sopho wrote:
Wow what a sh** opinion.


No. It's a perfectly reasonable opinion. Are you one of those liberals that think tradition and culture are worthless, unless it's that of some third-world ethnic group who you want to let walk all-over you in your own country?



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20 May 2007, 8:36 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Sopho wrote:
Tangible stuff.


Of course they're hypocritical..., it was pretty much implied (said actually) in my post. :wink:

Legal marriage and the legal benefits that it entails should be expanded to everyone; to do less is to show ignorance, prejudice and idiocy. But then, my voice is nothing compared to the idiots who run the place, and I've learnt to accept them for who and what they are, i.e., social sheep who're afraid of that which they don't know.

That is fair enough then. :P


ascan wrote:
Sopho wrote:
Wow what a sh** opinion.


No. It's a perfectly reasonable opinion. Are you one of those liberals that think tradition and culture are worthless, unless it's that of some third-world ethnic group who you want to let walk all-over you in your own country?

Tradition is worthless if it's only for the sake of tradition. If it's a tradition that makes sense then yes, keep it. But not just because it's traditional. Give me one good reason why I should not be able to marry a woman?



Danielismyname
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20 May 2007, 8:37 am

ascan wrote:
Are you one of those liberals that think tradition and culture are worthless,...


The good ol' days, where we stone sheep 'cause she was raped.... Where we hang people for stealing a loaf of bread to feed the starving.... :roll:

Logic don't compute.



ascan
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20 May 2007, 8:57 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Logic don't compute.

Well, yours certainly doesn't, old chap! It's perfectly reasonable to consider the value of culture and tradition. Of course, that's got to be balanced with other factors, as part of the bigger picture. If you want to be "logical" then you'd say that "marriage" as used with its new meaning is pointless, anyway. What purpose does it serve, other than to let a politically-active minority have the satisfaction they can get what they want? If you want to be really egalitarian why not let anyone get married to anyone they choose? Perhaps we could let two 8 year olds get married, after all it's not about having kids, is it? Why not extend it to threesomes? Is it not akin to being publicly flogged for stealing apples to not have the state sanction your ménage à trois?



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20 May 2007, 9:05 am

ascan wrote:
Danielismyname wrote:
Logic don't compute.

Well, yours certainly doesn't, old chap! It's perfectly reasonable to consider the value of culture and tradition. Of course, that's got to be balanced with other factors, as part of the bigger picture. If you want to be "logical" then you'd say that "marriage" as used with its new meaning is pointless, anyway. What purpose does it serve, other than to let a politically-active minority have the satisfaction they can get what they want? If you want to be really egalitarian why not let anyone get married to anyone they choose? Perhaps we could let two 8 year olds get married, after all it's not about having kids, is it? Why not extend it to threesomes? Is it not akin to being publicly flogged for stealing apples to not have the state sanction your ménage à trois?

Two 8 year olds are not old enough to consent.
The 8 year olds will one day be old enough to marry. Gay people do not suddenly turn straight. Therefore they will never be able to marry their partner if gay marriage is not legalised. To be honest, I don't see the problem in letting three people get married, as long as each of them is aware of the other two and consents to this. It would be no different than a business contract between three people.
How does straight marriage benefit society in any ways that gay marriage would not?



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20 May 2007, 9:06 am

ascan wrote:
Danielismyname wrote:
Logic don't compute.

Well, yours certainly doesn't, old chap! It's perfectly reasonable to consider the value of culture and tradition. Of course, that's got to be balanced with other factors, as part of the bigger picture. If you want to be "logical" then you'd say that "marriage" as used with its new meaning is pointless, anyway. What purpose does it serve, other than to let a politically-active minority have the satisfaction they can get what they want? If you want to be really egalitarian why not let anyone get married to anyone they choose? Perhaps we could let two 8 year olds get married, after all it's not about having kids, is it?


Because 8-year-olds are not legally able to enter into contracts, which is essentially what marriage is.


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Danielismyname
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20 May 2007, 9:24 am

ascan wrote:
Stuff


Whatever floats your boat; it doesn’t affect me at all, so I don't care if you marry a donkey; and please tell me, how does it affect my life if you marry a donkey or not? I guess I’m too “progressive” for most.

"Justice", "laws" and "flaws" change constantly with the status quo, it has nothing to do with perceived "tradition", if tradition were all it's made to be they'd still be executing infidels in the courtyard for daring to question illogical statements of subjective stupidity that's wrapped in the objective majority. It has everything to do with moral “progress” and intellectual musings.... If you cannot see this, whose fault is it, the “flaws” or the flawed “laws”?

Marriage itself, the meaning itself will change with the environment; the environment doesn't care for the meaning we place on companionship; if you're afraid of those "flawed" people partaking in what you hold "dear", call it what it is: legal companionship that gives everyone the same benefits; not just the majority who cannot see anything other than their own view.

I believe that we should ban autistic individuals like me from marrying, I may “pass” it on if I procreate via religions’ rules; we cannot have that! It’s even worse than gay people marrying; they cannot even pass it on! :roll:



ascan
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20 May 2007, 9:26 am

Xenon wrote:
Because 8-year-olds are not legally able to enter into contracts, which is essentially what marriage is.

In the UK minors can enter into limited contractual arrangements. It is true that they are minors up to 18. However, the law allows them to marry at 16. So, obviously being a minor doesn't bar someone from marriage. The law may bar them below 16, but as we're talking about changing the law to reognise gay marriage, anyway, why not change it to let same-sex 8 year olds marry? What's stopping that? Clearly, the issue of them being minors is not. In the eyes of those on your side of the argument the issue of reproduction is not. So, in the interests of inclusive progressive-liberalism, why not let them marry?



Danielismyname
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20 May 2007, 9:31 am

ascan wrote:
Slippery slope fallacy.


They're not speaking of minors..., they're speaking of adults.



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20 May 2007, 9:33 am

ascan wrote:
In the UK minors can enter into limited contractual arrangements. It is true that they are minors up to 18. However, the law allows them to marry at 16. So, obviously being a minor doesn't bar someone from marriage.


It obviously does if they're below 16. The contractual agreements a minor can enter into are very limited, and the limitations are there for their own protection. They can't move out and get their own apartment, they can't legally drop out of school... minors do not have the same rights as adults do. On the other hand, gay people, being adults, are able to enter into contractual agreements already. All we're talking about is allowing them the same rights as anyone else to form a legal pair bond with another adult.

ascan wrote:
In the eyes of those on your side of the argument the issue of reproduction is not. So, in the interests of inclusive progressive-liberalism, why not let them marry?


Minors have kids all the time. Or does the UK not have a problem with teenage pregnancy? Reproduction is irrelevant. If it was relevant, then infertile straight couples would not be allowed to marry.


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ascan
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20 May 2007, 9:37 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Marriage itself, the meaning itself will change with the environment...

It will. And in an environment where vociferous leftists didn't get the opportunity to force their every whim on us as regards how our language is used, marriage would mean one man and one women.



ascan
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20 May 2007, 9:45 am

Xenon wrote:
...It obviously does if they're below 16.

You asserted that minors can't enter into contracts. I showed they can.

Anyway, what do you think about the ménage à trois option? Should that be sanctioned by the state?



Danielismyname
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20 May 2007, 9:46 am

ascan wrote:
Danielismyname wrote:
Marriage itself, the meaning itself will change with the environment...

It will. And in an environment where vociferous leftists didn't get the opportunity to force their every whim on us as regards how our language is used, marriage would mean one man and one women.


But isn't that the point of democratic society; going by tradition that is…? The majority turns to the minority overnight due to “progress” (whether you agree with it or not), and the majority that is tomorrow turns to the majority yesterday.... :wink:

Majority still rules..., it doesn't mean they're "right", and neither does it mean that you're "right" either when you're the oppressed minority. Both can be wrong if they arrived to their conclusion via erroneous intertextual interpretation, rather than introspective musing that's objective and gentle to everyone.