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War - A necessary evil?

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Daran
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27 Aug 2008, 11:30 pm

Anubis wrote:
Can war be the best cause of action and catalyst for change in some circumstances? Discuss. I will post my opinion later.


Change is always better than static peace (a peace with suppression and crude exploitation like e.g. in North Korea). But to avoid the excessive cruelties of war there needs to be a global police force that can use violence effectively and justly when all other things have failed. Unfortunately we don't yet have a global government so war is a still a savage tool for gaining economic power and thwarting freedom. There is already a more or less global awareness that war is cruel and crude hence the lies about warring factions as "international peacekeepers" but we are still not quite ready for global government and a global peace or police force.



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27 Aug 2008, 11:45 pm

Psimulus wrote:
I believe that resources are the primary catalyst for war. This includes fuel, food, space, heat, electricity, etc... People fight because of disparity, an imbalance of power and resources caused by greedy, unreasonably selfish, pessimistic, cynical individuals.... Money, cash, currency, is an illusion. Currency is a reflection of our resource stream. When we produce a supply of renewable energy in abundance, we will end most war. ....


Sounds reasonable to me. The problem is that the wants of modern humans are almost infinite and we easily confuse wants and needs. Technology by itself cannot solve the problem, because the problem is also political and economic, and also moral, psychological and spiritual.


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27 Aug 2008, 11:49 pm

I would suggest that the people fight but the people don't initiate or continue wars. That is in the hands of those in power who control the military and the economic resources of the country and the sources of information and propaganda and that is never the people.



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27 Aug 2008, 11:50 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Believe what you like. I refuse to accept that we are incapable of evolving our thinking to a point where war is unconscionable. I do not accept that if we had rebuilt Germany rather that destroy it Hitler would have found another way. Not intending the results of war reparations does not absolve the allies of complicity. We must not give in to war, education and understanding of the root causes of war is the first step in preventing them

To quote Einstein once more.

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."

"The pioneers of a warless world are the young men who refuse military service"

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."


Yes :D


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Bobby1933
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28 Aug 2008, 12:00 am

Sand wrote:
It depends upon whom you classify as inferior. If the term is applied to racists, corporate executives with no concern for humanity but the money they can squeeze out of it, to politicians who sell themselves off to the highest bidder, to power hungry leaders who survive through brutality, to religious nuts who have no sense of reality and are willing to torture and murder in the name of their faith, I would find the concept most appealing.


Sand: I really feel like agreeing with you on this, but I can't. Our hope lies in the possibility that the victims of power can use the tools of the powerless: Doubt, humor, love, community, etc. Our hope lies in the possibility that the victims will not resort to the tools of the powerful: hierarchy, tradition, violence, order, etc.
Love and peace to all.


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28 Aug 2008, 12:13 am

Sand wrote:
I had hoped you had some practical solutions but calling the proposals theoretical does not buck up my confidence. If I were religious I would pray but that silly idea gives me no comfort whatsoever.


Just for argument's sake, what could I propose that wouldn't be considered impractical? If there were truly practical solutions to societies ills, you'd hope we'd have done them by now. I happen to think that drug policy reform would be one the easiest solutions, and as you've pointed out even that would be a struggle. Also, for argument's sake I wasn't suggesting killing corrupt politicians, but that's a good idea too :D .


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Bobby1933
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28 Aug 2008, 12:15 am

slowmutant wrote:
I don't know why you're comparing Jesus to Stalin and Marx.


I can't figure Stalin either, but Jesus and Karl were both good hearted men who tried to make the world better by teaching people how to behave better.


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28 Aug 2008, 3:47 am

Bobby1933 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
I don't know why you're comparing Jesus to Stalin and Marx.


I can't figure Stalin either, but Jesus and Karl were both good hearted men who tried to make the world better by teaching people how to behave better.


There's one big difference between Jesus and Karl. Can you guess what it is?



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28 Aug 2008, 4:33 am

slowmutant wrote:
Bobby1933 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
I don't know why you're comparing Jesus to Stalin and Marx.


I can't figure Stalin either, but Jesus and Karl were both good hearted men who tried to make the world better by teaching people how to behave better.


There's one big difference between Jesus and Karl. Can you guess what it is?


Arrrgh. Lets start again. No-one was comparing the morals of Stalin, Marx, Hitler, Or Jesus. This all started with sand suggesting that the labels these men had placed on them was wrong. Eg Stalin was NOT a communist, and maybe Jesus would not fit our modern interpretation of a christian (considering how some very vocal christians behave). As for hitler I did not quite get it either because I thought he was the architect of Nazism.


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28 Aug 2008, 4:35 am

Dox47 wrote:

Ahh, I see your blood has quit boiling long enough for you to come back to the keyboard, do try not to pop a vein or something, I'd hate to have your blood on my hands. If you recall, this got started because you called me a, "selfish little sh*t" was it? I explained to you that I had a weapons fixation going back to early childhood, and that as an aspie you should be aware that fixation/obsessions are quite common among us. I'm not trying to "justify" or "excuse" anything, I don't feel I need to, that is the crux of my position, I don't feel that there is anything wrong with what I do.


NO I was not too angry to come back to the keyboard. I was just enjoying you making a fool of yourself :lol:


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28 Aug 2008, 5:30 am

Daran wrote:
Anubis wrote:
Can war be the best cause of action and catalyst for change in some circumstances? Discuss. I will post my opinion later.


Change is always better than static peace (a peace with suppression and crude exploitation like e.g. in North Korea). But to avoid the excessive cruelties of war there needs to be a global police force that can use violence effectively and justly when all other things have failed. Unfortunately we don't yet have a global government so war is a still a savage tool for gaining economic power and thwarting freedom. There is already a more or less global awareness that war is cruel and crude hence the lies about warring factions as "international peacekeepers" but we are still not quite ready for global government and a global peace or police force.


Why the assumption that peace equals suppression & exploitation?



Anubis
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28 Aug 2008, 8:48 am

Daran wrote:
Anubis wrote:
Can war be the best cause of action and catalyst for change in some circumstances? Discuss. I will post my opinion later.


Change is always better than static peace (a peace with suppression and crude exploitation like e.g. in North Korea). But to avoid the excessive cruelties of war there needs to be a global police force that can use violence effectively and justly when all other things have failed. Unfortunately we don't yet have a global government so war is a still a savage tool for gaining economic power and thwarting freedom. There is already a more or less global awareness that war is cruel and crude hence the lies about warring factions as "international peacekeepers" but we are still not quite ready for global government and a global peace or police force.


Agreed.


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iamnotaparakeet
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28 Aug 2008, 9:22 am

Anubis wrote:
Daran wrote:
Anubis wrote:
Can war be the best cause of action and catalyst for change in some circumstances? Discuss. I will post my opinion later.


Change is always better than static peace (a peace with suppression and crude exploitation like e.g. in North Korea). But to avoid the excessive cruelties of war there needs to be a global police force that can use violence effectively and justly when all other things have failed. Unfortunately we don't yet have a global government so war is a still a savage tool for gaining economic power and thwarting freedom. There is already a more or less global awareness that war is cruel and crude hence the lies about warring factions as "international peacekeepers" but we are still not quite ready for global government and a global peace or police force.


Agreed.


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