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funeralxempire
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27 Sep 2017, 3:58 am

EzraS wrote:
Good luck on finding presidents or candidates who haven't lied, or haven't broken their promises or haven't been accused of being racists or dictators or whatever.


Perfectly fair to point out.
That said, how true those accusations have been varies quite a bit. They seem quite supportable by the available evidence in this case.


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27 Sep 2017, 7:37 am

funeralxempire wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Good luck on finding presidents or candidates who haven't lied, or haven't broken their promises or haven't been accused of being racists or dictators or whatever.


Perfectly fair to point out.
That said, how true those accusations have been varies quite a bit. They seem quite supportable by the available evidence in this case.


That seems debatable depending on whos assessment one appeals to.



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27 Sep 2017, 2:46 pm

Ezra, I know you like to think of yourself as an independent freethinker who doesn't just parrot party lines. That's commendable, but there's more to it than just saying "well, everyone has opinions". Being a freethinker means weighing up the facts for yourself and coming to developed conclusions. It means critically analysing whether someone is good, rather than just dismissing all opinions because human opinions cover every possible belief. It means substantiating your opinions with supporting evidence.

When people criticise Trump's conduct, they talk about how he has inflamed the situation with North Korea. They talk about how his refusal to respect diplomatic solutions to Iran's nuclear program (while not providing any specific reasoning as to why he's rejecting the existing deal beyond "it's terrible" and "Obama did it") reduces the possibility of a diplomatic solution with North Korea. They talk about how he insults people on Twitter. They talk about how his headline "Muslim ban" was rejected by several courts for discriminating on the grounds of religion. They talk about his failure to get his healthcare reforms through Congress, even though the Republicans control both chambers. They talk about him speaking of grabbing women's vaginas. They talk about him refusing to blame white nationalist terrorists when they kill innocent people, instead blaming violence generally, despite repeatedly criticising Obama for not saying "radical Islamic terrorism". They talk about him asking for sportspeople to be fired for protesting against racism. They talk about him lying about Muslims celebrating 9/11 in New York. They talk about him lying about easily verifiable things on a regular basis. They talk about his poor relationships with the people around him and the unusually high turnover amongst his senior advisers. They talk about him accidentally leaking classified information to Russian diplomats. They talk about his attacks on the free press and his reliance on a very narrow, unusually ideological subsection of that press. They talk about his willingness to criticise deals made with allies and alienate them in the process, including alienating the South Koreans while reliant on their support in the North Korea crisis. They talk about how he rarely or never shows any understanding of nuance, any critical thinking, or any respect for the office of president.

Sure, some people didn't like Obama, and some people didn't like Dubya. But the evidence is clear: Trump is worse than every president since Nixon, and he's only been in the job a few months.

Ignoring the evidence and just saying "well, everyone has opinions" is not impartial, and nor is it a sign of intellect. Quite the opposite.



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27 Sep 2017, 4:41 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Ezra, I know you like to think of yourself as an independent freethinker who doesn't just parrot party lines. That's commendable, but there's more to it than just saying "well, everyone has opinions". Being a freethinker means weighing up the facts for yourself and coming to developed conclusions. It means critically analysing whether someone is good, rather than just dismissing all opinions because human opinions cover every possible belief. It means substantiating your opinions with supporting evidence.

When people criticise Trump's conduct, they talk about how he has inflamed the situation with North Korea. They talk about how his refusal to respect diplomatic solutions to Iran's nuclear program (while not providing any specific reasoning as to why he's rejecting the existing deal beyond "it's terrible" and "Obama did it") reduces the possibility of a diplomatic solution with North Korea. They talk about how he insults people on Twitter. They talk about how his headline "Muslim ban" was rejected by several courts for discriminating on the grounds of religion. They talk about his failure to get his healthcare reforms through Congress, even though the Republicans control both chambers. They talk about him speaking of grabbing women's vaginas. They talk about him refusing to blame white nationalist terrorists when they kill innocent people, instead blaming violence generally, despite repeatedly criticising Obama for not saying "radical Islamic terrorism". They talk about him asking for sportspeople to be fired for protesting against racism. They talk about him lying about Muslims celebrating 9/11 in New York. They talk about him lying about easily verifiable things on a regular basis. They talk about his poor relationships with the people around him and the unusually high turnover amongst his senior advisers. They talk about him accidentally leaking classified information to Russian diplomats. They talk about his attacks on the free press and his reliance on a very narrow, unusually ideological subsection of that press. They talk about his willingness to criticise deals made with allies and alienate them in the process, including alienating the South Koreans while reliant on their support in the North Korea crisis. They talk about how he rarely or never shows any understanding of nuance, any critical thinking, or any respect for the office of president.

Sure, some people didn't like Obama, and some people didn't like Dubya. But the evidence is clear: Trump is worse than every president since Nixon, and he's only been in the job a few months.

Ignoring the evidence and just saying "well, everyone has opinions" is not impartial, and nor is it a sign of intellect. Quite the opposite.


That's an overall obviously biased view. There doesn't seem to be any original thought into it. It's the same litany I see repeated verbatim all the time. Like people reading from the same script. I remember they were insisting he is the worst president in history, before he even took office.

And how could I possibly ignore something that's being rammed down my throat all the time.



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27 Sep 2017, 6:08 pm

By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.



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27 Sep 2017, 8:35 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.



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27 Sep 2017, 10:27 pm

EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.


there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.



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27 Sep 2017, 11:46 pm

cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.


there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.


I haven't seen anything particularly amazing in people debunking or at least being more realistic in addressing the list of grievances. And I've noticed those doing so seem more calm and tend to sound more reasonable.



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28 Sep 2017, 12:31 pm

EzraS wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.


there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.


I haven't seen anything particularly amazing in people debunking or at least being more realistic in addressing the list of grievances. And I've noticed those doing so seem more calm and tend to sound more reasonable.


examples?



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28 Sep 2017, 2:56 pm

cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.

there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.

Trump is fighting for the things his base wants.

-End Obamacare
-Renegotiate NAFTA
-The Wall
-Curtail immigration
-Tax cuts
-Boost military
-Boost border patrol

Incremental progress is being made on all these.

His Commerce department just socked the UK company Bombadier with huge fines to "level the playing field" for Boeing.



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28 Sep 2017, 3:01 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.

there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.

Trump is fighting for the things his base wants.

-End Obamacare
-Renegotiate NAFTA
-The Wall
-Curtail immigration
-Tax cuts
-Boost military
-Boost border patrol

Incremental progress is being made on all these.

His Commerce department just socked the UK company Bombadier with huge fines to "level the playing field" for Boeing.


yup, we're all going to love those tax cuts for the rich, especially since trickle-down has never worked before.



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28 Sep 2017, 3:21 pm

cathylynn wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.

there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.

Trump is fighting for the things his base wants.

-End Obamacare
-Renegotiate NAFTA
-The Wall
-Curtail immigration
-Tax cuts
-Boost military
-Boost border patrol

Incremental progress is being made on all these.

His Commerce department just socked the UK company Bombadier with huge fines to "level the playing field" for Boeing.


yup, we're all going to love those tax cuts for the rich, especially since trickle-down has never worked before.

Well .... it may not be much , but like 80% of the middle class (non-itemizers) are expected to benefit.

The proposed tax changes would also reduce state taxes which are based on one's adjusted federal gross income.

"The standard deduction is subtracted from your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI), thereby reducing your taxable income"
https://www.irs.com/articles/2016-feder ... deductions

My mom, mostly retired, should get about $2000 more per year for life.

My dad, mostly retired and remarried (so would get the full $12000 deduction), should get like $3000 more per year for life.

Those are nice little yearly retirement gifts from Trump.



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28 Sep 2017, 3:23 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.

there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.

Trump is fighting for the things his base wants.

-End Obamacare
-Renegotiate NAFTA
-The Wall
-Curtail immigration
-Tax cuts
-Boost military
-Boost border patrol

Incremental progress is being made on all these.

His Commerce department just socked the UK company Bombadier with huge fines to "level the playing field" for Boeing.


this doesn't explain how the racism, lying, and narcissism can be interpreted away.



cathylynn
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28 Sep 2017, 5:46 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.

there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.

Trump is fighting for the things his base wants.

-End Obamacare
-Renegotiate NAFTA
-The Wall
-Curtail immigration
-Tax cuts
-Boost military
-Boost border patrol

Incremental progress is being made on all these.

His Commerce department just socked the UK company Bombadier with huge fines to "level the playing field" for Boeing.


yup, we're all going to love those tax cuts for the rich, especially since trickle-down has never worked before.

Well .... it may not be much , but like 80% of the middle class (non-itemizers) are expected to benefit.

The proposed tax changes would also reduce state taxes which are based on one's adjusted federal gross income.

"The standard deduction is subtracted from your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI), thereby reducing your taxable income"
https://www.irs.com/articles/2016-feder ... deductions

My mom, mostly retired, should get about $2000 more per year for life.

My dad, mostly retired and remarried (so would get the full $12000 deduction), should get like $3000 more per year for life.

Those are nice little yearly retirement gifts from Trump.


well, i just heard a right-wing think tank quoted on NPR. they said that no one knows what income levels will be in the various brackets, so other than the very rich benefitting by estate tax repeal, no one knows even if the middle class will benefit at all.



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28 Sep 2017, 6:30 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
By all means, feel free to point out anything I said that is inaccurate.


It's more a matter of interpretation than accuracy. Which is what I said from the beginning.

there must be some amazing interpretation going on to make trump seem decent or sane.

Trump is fighting for the things his base wants.

-End Obamacare
-Renegotiate NAFTA
-The Wall
-Curtail immigration
-Tax cuts
-Boost military
-Boost border patrol

Incremental progress is being made on all these.

His Commerce department just socked the UK company Bombadier with huge fines to "level the playing field" for Boeing.


yup, we're all going to love those tax cuts for the rich, especially since trickle-down has never worked before.

Well .... it may not be much , but like 80% of the middle class (non-itemizers) are expected to benefit.

The proposed tax changes would also reduce state taxes which are based on one's adjusted federal gross income.

"The standard deduction is subtracted from your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI), thereby reducing your taxable income"
https://www.irs.com/articles/2016-feder ... deductions

My mom, mostly retired, should get about $2000 more per year for life.

My dad, mostly retired and remarried (so would get the full $12000 deduction), should get like $3000 more per year for life.

Those are nice little yearly retirement gifts from Trump.


That's never gonna happen. I'm sitting here counting the days I have left before my family goes broke and leave the middle class for good with no climb back up. This is the worst tax reform that I know of in history.


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29 Sep 2017, 5:34 am

cathylynn wrote:
well, i just heard a right-wing think tank quoted on NPR. they said that no one knows what income levels will be in the various brackets, so other than the very rich benefitting by estate tax repeal, no one knows even if the middle class will benefit at all.

Here are estimates from Trump's earlier proposed tax bracket incomes ...
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-ta ... pay-2017-9

His earlier proposal of the range of the brackets:
$25,001 to $50,000
$50,001 to $150,000
$150,001 or more

So, as shown in the chart, applying Trump's latest tax bracket proposal ...
12% $25,001 to $50,000
25% $50,001 to $150,000
28% $150,001 or more

Results (assuming you normally use the standard deduction):
Single, childless taxpayer, $25,000 salary ---> Savings $178
Single, childless taxpayer, $75,000 salary ---> Savings $2,678
Single, childless taxpayer, $175,000 salary ---> Savings $3, 589