How can someone with Aspergers be left-wing?

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number5
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21 Nov 2010, 8:44 pm

That's strange, if I google GM investors win, this article comes up:

GM IPO: A Rare Win for Washington Over Wall Street

And the game's not over. We still have about 33% of the ownership.

Incidentally, when I simply google GM investors, or GM IPO, none of the opinion pieces and/or outdated articles you linked showed up. It's not the quantity of research that counts, it's the quality. You're off to a bad start when "screwed" is one of your keywords.



Inuyasha
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21 Nov 2010, 8:49 pm

Those aren't outdated articles the original stockholders lost their stock, the government price fixing isn't a good thing.

Also, the article doesn't tell the whole story as usual, and you can get all the spin you want number5, but you still either aren't paying attention to the facts or you are being disingenious.



marshall
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21 Nov 2010, 8:52 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
number5 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
number5 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
number5 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
number5 wrote:

Are you referring to the GM bailout that actually worked? Bush just handed out a bunch of cash to the auto industry without any repayment request, and it didn't even work. Yesterday GM earned raised over $20 billion at it's IPO, the biggest IPO of common stock ever. Our stake is now 33% and and it's still possible for us to receive a full refund in the future.


In the mean time has GM (Government Motors) produced a decent automobile?

ruveyn


I think there has been marked improvement. But the point is that they wouldn't be making any cars at all without some sort of government intervention. Unemployment is easily our greatest problem and it would have been much worse if we lost GM.

The problem has been solved at little or no cost to the taxpayer.

Edited for brain fart (I included Ford in my original comment and Ford is not part of GM)


Ford actually managed to recover WITHOUT taking Government money. Quite honestly GM's problems is due to the unions which Obama also bailed out. In doing so Obama was rewarding his campaign donors which was his actual intent.


The company was on the verge of total collapse. Please provide evidence that the government intervention had no effect.


The company could have down a lot of other things.

Also I can tell you what it effects it did have:

* Discouraged Investing -- You no longer know if your rights as investors will be honored, so why should anyone invest in a company. (Obama broke the law in the bailout)

* Payoffs to unions -- (whom donated significant amounts of money to get Obama elected)

* Car Dealerships shut down (with hints that many of the closing may have been political instead of business oriented)

* Enormous amount of taxpayer money spent


All false.

Discouraging investing?! They just broke the all-time record for shares sold at their IPO. The car dealerships closed down because because sales were in the crapper. There needed to be some restructuring and scaling back just to stay afloat. Saturn made a great car, but the profit margin was just too slim. And the taxpayers have already gotten back over half of their initial investment, with the remainder likely to come in the near future. That's more than we can say about the Bush handout they received.

I didn't mention the payoff to unions because I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you referring to the workers getting to keep their job? Again, evidence for your claim please.


You seriously don't do your research.

Government selling stocks at a loss:
http://dailycaller.com/2010/11/18/gm-se ... something/
http://www.usmoneytalk.com/finance/stoc ... -loss-911/
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2010 ... o-sources/

Then about investors:

Go to www.google.com
and type in the key words "gm investors screwed"


More straining at gnats and swallowing camels. When investors buy stock they are taking a gamble. GM agreed to the conditions of the bailout. They could have refused.

Also why is it that republicans never lift a finger regarding so-called "investors-rights" when it comes to CEOs mismanaging companies and screwing investors.



Inuyasha
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21 Nov 2010, 11:50 pm

@ marshall

Really you are in the wrong on this.

Those left to toil in the vineyards of corporate restructuring, though,
must contend with the “law” produced by these two historic cases. Although
one might with considerable justification argue that Chrysler and
GM were sui generis—and as a matter of law should be politely and discreetly
ignored as once-in-a-century aberrations having more to do with
political and economic necessity than with legal precedent that anyone
should take seriously—we suspect (indeed, to a virtual certainty) that
such will not be the case. The decisions rendered by the influential and
respected federal courts in New York were framed as being squarely
within the mainstream of current accepted bankruptcy convention3 and
undoubtedly will be happily embraced and submitted as gospel in future
cases by the sophisticated elite of the reorganization bar, who themselves
crafted the very practices approved by the Chrysler and GM courts.4 In
short, we have no choice but to take stock of where we stand in reorganization
law and practice after Chrysler and GM.


http://www.law.uiuc.edu/lrev/publicatio ... ubaker.pdf

Earlier, I wrote about the Indiana pension funds’ challenge to the Obama Administration’s plan to effectively give Chrysler to the UAW Union, while cheating the pension funds that loaned it money (and ripping off taxpayers), and how that violates federal bankruptcy laws.

The government is now arguing that the pension funds don’t have legal standing to challenge the plan, since they supposedly can’t prove they will be worse off than if the Administration had just sat back and let Chrysler go bankrupt naturally. The government says that the pension funds might have received even less in such a bankruptcy than the pennies on the dollar they are slated to receive under the government’s plan, under which it injected billions in taxpayer money into Chrysler, and then engineered a sale of Chrysler’s valuable asserts to a new company mostly owned by the UAW that is part of a planned merger with Italian carmaker Fiat. (The Administration has completely failed to do its homework before pushing for a merger with Fiat, which is alleged to have Enron-like accounting problems, and massive shady dealings that could haunt taxpayers and autoworkers alike in the future).

The government is wrong. The pension funds have standing even if their victory would leave them no better off, but would merely eliminate the unfair preference received by the UAW. For example, in Heckler v. Mathews (1984), the Supreme Court held that male reverse-discrimination plaintiffs had standing to challenge a federal government gender-preference that benefited women, even if the challenge would only result in benefits being taken away from the women, and would not result in men getting any additional benefits.

Moreover, the funds, as secured creditors, will be enormously adversely affected in future bankruptcies by the disturbing precedent set by the Chrysler bankruptcy, in which an unsecured creditor — the UAW — received far more than secured creditors — the Indiana state pension funds that loaned money to Chrysler under the solemn understanding that they would stand first in line in any bankruptcy. Losing this lawsuit will strip them of an enormous bargaining chip in future bankruptcies. The loss of a bargaining chip is sufficient grounds for standing, as the Supreme Court made clear in Clinton v. City of New York (1998), where it allowed farmers to challenge the line-item veto as a violation of the Constitution when it resulted in the President vetoing legislation that would have given a bargaining chip to use in potentially purchasing a potato processing plant. Bankruptcy law experts have noted the precedent set by the Chrysler bankruptcy will have a great impact on General Motors and other bankruptcies in the future. An inability to compete on fair terms in the future is grounds for standing. See Gratz v. Bollinger (2003) (student who alleged he would apply as a transfer student to a college if it would stop considering race in admissions had standing to challenge college’s race-conscious admissions policy).

Moreover, even if the Obama Administration’s unfair plan to give Chrysler to the UAW were blocked, it would just find alternative ways, fairer to the pension funds and less biased towards the UAW, to keep Chrysler going, through taxpayer funds if necessary. Letting Chrysler go out of existence would put UAW members out of work, and the Administration would be loath to let that happen, given that the UAW spent millions electing Obama, and made millions more in donations to the liberal lawmakers who now dominate Capitol Hill.

A federal appeals court has refused to block the Administration’s illegal auto bailout, which rips off taxpayers and pension funds to enrich the UAW union. The pension funds that challenged the bailout then appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. The bailout violates the federal TARP statute by diverting financial-system bailout funds to a takeover of the auto industry. And the government’s reorganization plan for Chrysler violates federal bankruptcy laws by ripping off lenders to give the company to the UAW union.

http://www.examiner.com/scotus-in-washi ... v-chrysler

The kind of stunt Obama pulled is Chavez-like. Face the facts Marshall, what happened was illegal your 'annointed-one' stole from people to pay off his cronies.

For the first time in American history, we have a man in the White House who consciously and brazenly disregards his oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution. That's why I say the greatest threat to our Constitution, our safety and our liberties, is internal. Our president is an enemy of our Constitution, and, as such, he is a danger to our safety, our security and our personal freedoms.

Barack Obama is one of the most powerful presidents this nation has seen in generations. He is powerful because he is supported by large majorities in Congress, but, more importantly, because he does not feel constrained by the rule of law. Whether he is putting up the weakest possible defense of the Defense of Marriage Act despite the Justice Department's legal obligation to support existing law; disenfranchising Chrysler and GM bondholders in order to transfer billions of investor dollars to his supporters in the United Auto Workers; or implementing yet a third offshore oil-drilling moratorium even after two federal courts have thrown out two previous moratoriums, President Obama is determined to see things done his way regardless of obstacles. To Mr. Obama, the rule of law is a mere inconvenience to be ignored, overcome or "transcended" through international agreements or "norms."


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... peachment/

Sounds like an argument can be made to impeach him too.

Furthermore, there are arguments that GM stock is worth a lot less than it is being sold as, that the price is being kept artificially high. Obama and the Democrats are part of the reason no one is investing or hiring, they are afraid he's going to pull another stunt like that.



JNathanK
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22 Nov 2010, 11:38 pm

LibertarianAS wrote:
some Asperger traits:

-Perseveration and difficulties with change
-low agreeability
-logical thinking

now a leftists is someone who WANT change,who want to live in a COLLECTIVE over INDIVIDUALISTIC world where everyone help everyone and about logical thinking...LOL


I'm a logical thinker and not very agreeable, but I am on the left side of the political spectrum. I don't see the conflict. I have a lot of opinions that differ from other people, but that doesn't mean I don't consider the disposition of others. I'm an individualist, but I also respect the right of other people to be individualists as well, which gives rise to my social conscience. There's a balance to these things. It shouldn't be 100% about individual rights nor 100% about societal rights, because I really don't think the two necessarily have to be at odds with each other to begin with.

When you understand that we are constantly affecting other people and being affected by other people, all illusions that we are a completely distinct organism from everyone else becomes more elucidated. I know that the way I behave to other people could effect them very drastically. If I'm a jerk to someone, they could drive home, distracted by how I treated them during the day, and end up in a car wreck.

If kids in the inner city have parents too poor to send them to private school, I'm happy to give away my tax dollars to ensure they get an opportunity to have an education, as opposed to being forced to work in tenements, as a child in that socioeconomic position 100 years ago would have had no other option to do. The way the government and school boards manage the money is another story, but I don't think that getting rid of social services altogether is the solution as some claim it is. Its the job of the citizenry to keep all of this in check.



nominalist
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22 Nov 2010, 11:45 pm

Well, sociologically, I am about as "left-wing" as they come: a neo-Marxist (technically, a postmodern critical theorist).


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24 Nov 2010, 7:48 am

Do you mean proper Political Compass left wing or Tea Party 'anything short of total free-market' left wing?



marshall
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24 Nov 2010, 2:05 pm

@ Inuyasha

The first source you posted looks scholarly but the other two are slanted legal interpretations intended to tarnish Obama. I don't have time to go through it all now but it would help me if you paraphrased the facts on the GM bailout (which are there in your first link) without relying on conservative-slanted opinion pieces to interpret and frame it for you.



ruveyn
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24 Nov 2010, 5:01 pm

marshall wrote:
@ Inuyasha

The first source you posted looks scholarly but the other two are slanted legal interpretations intended to tarnish Obama. I don't have time to go through it all now but it would help me if you paraphrased the facts on the GM bailout (which are there in your first link) without relying on conservative-slanted opinion pieces to interpret and frame it for you.


Obama does not need to be tarnished. He has tarnished himself quite handily. He has revealed himself to be an "empty suit".

ruveyn



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25 Nov 2010, 2:09 am

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
@ Inuyasha

The first source you posted looks scholarly but the other two are slanted legal interpretations intended to tarnish Obama. I don't have time to go through it all now but it would help me if you paraphrased the facts on the GM bailout (which are there in your first link) without relying on conservative-slanted opinion pieces to interpret and frame it for you.


Obama does not need to be tarnished. He has tarnished himself quite handily. He has revealed himself to be an "empty suit".


and shrub was all hat.



marshall
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25 Nov 2010, 2:26 am

Hmmm... I'd actually be willing to question my own view or concede something if I could see some arguments from both sides regarding the handing of the GM bailout. Yet all I can find are obvious conservative and/or pro-wall street publications railing against it.



ruveyn
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25 Nov 2010, 11:07 am

auntblabby wrote:

and shrub was all hat.


That he was. We had a dolt followed by a knave. I weep for the Republic.

ruveyn



Inuyasha
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25 Nov 2010, 3:49 pm

marshall wrote:
Hmmm... I'd actually be willing to question my own view or concede something if I could see some arguments from both sides regarding the handing of the GM bailout. Yet all I can find are obvious conservative and/or pro-wall street publications railing against it.


How about the fact Obama did it in violation of Federal Law, does the law mean anything to you. People invest with the understanding that if the place goes broke they are supposed to be practically the first in line to recoup money from bankruptcy. However, Obama is buddies with the Unions so he decided to screw the investors over and give the Unions the money in clear violation of the law.

He has also violated court orders concerning his Drilling Moratorium at least twice, his staff altered documents after thes experts had signed them to make it look like they were supporting something they were opposing.

The fact is this isn't something that is a both sides issue, this is about a contract is a contract. This is about a President violating Federal Law just cause he feels like it (and there is no argument of National Security being at stake either). Laws exist for a reason, you can't change the rules just cause you feel like your buddies should get the money, he is not a king despite what he may believe.



marshall
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26 Nov 2010, 2:53 am

Inuyasha wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hmmm... I'd actually be willing to question my own view or concede something if I could see some arguments from both sides regarding the handing of the GM bailout. Yet all I can find are obvious conservative and/or pro-wall street publications railing against it.


How about the fact Obama did it in violation of Federal Law, does the law mean anything to you. People invest with the understanding that if the place goes broke they are supposed to be practically the first in line to recoup money from bankruptcy. However, Obama is buddies with the Unions so he decided to screw the investors over and give the Unions the money in clear violation of the law.

He has also violated court orders concerning his Drilling Moratorium at least twice, his staff altered documents after thes experts had signed them to make it look like they were supporting something they were opposing.

The fact is this isn't something that is a both sides issue, this is about a contract is a contract. This is about a President violating Federal Law just cause he feels like it (and there is no argument of National Security being at stake either). Laws exist for a reason, you can't change the rules just cause you feel like your buddies should get the money, he is not a king despite what he may believe.


The problem is you haven't provided any unbiased sources supporting the claim you are making that he literally "broke the law". You're simply repeating things you've read from right-wing sources.



ruveyn
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26 Nov 2010, 8:48 am

Inuyasha wrote:
marshall wrote:
Hmmm... I'd actually be willing to question my own view or concede something if I could see some arguments from both sides regarding the handing of the GM bailout. Yet all I can find are obvious conservative and/or pro-wall street publications railing against it.


How about the fact Obama did it in violation of Federal Law, does the law mean anything to you. People invest with the understanding that if the place goes broke they are supposed to be practically the first in line to recoup money from bankruptcy. However, Obama is buddies with the Unions so he decided to screw the investors over and give the Unions the money in clear violation of the law.

He has also violated court orders concerning his Drilling Moratorium at least twice, his staff altered documents after thes experts had signed them to make it look like they were supporting something they were opposing.

The fact is this isn't something that is a both sides issue, this is about a contract is a contract. This is about a President violating Federal Law just cause he feels like it (and there is no argument of National Security being at stake either). Laws exist for a reason, you can't change the rules just cause you feel like your buddies should get the money, he is not a king despite what he may believe.


There is no "high crime and misdemeanor" until a bill originating in the House of Representatives says so.

ruveyn



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26 Nov 2010, 9:03 am

Quote:
How can someone with Aspergers be left-wing?

because they fly in "right" circles.


gawwwd i am tired