Does the government own your vagina?

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blunnet
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14 Apr 2011, 6:43 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

because most abortions occur because two individuals decide to be immature and have sex with each other, then decide to have an abortion because they consider the child to be inconveinent.

Immature, having sex with each other? :lol:

RedHanrahan
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14 Apr 2011, 6:44 pm

These are good points skafather, define 'needing psychiatric help'?

I consider people who cling to religious dogma to be in need of something, to my mind they seem to be emotionally imature and intellectually lazy, are they fit to make their own decisions given the tendency to deference to an unproved theology?

Perhaps we value individual lives altogether too much and are altogether too egocentric to tolerate real freedoms or rise to real serious responsibilties?

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Vexcalibur
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14 Apr 2011, 6:52 pm

Most abortions occur because of poor information and poor access to contraception and the 'day after' pill.

Some abortions occur because of rape.

Abortion rates are a sign of a sick society. A society that does not educate its children correctly about sex. A society in which giving away condoms in high school is seen as a promotion of seen rather than as a pragmatic way to reduce unwanted pregnancies. A society that doesn't figure that promoting abstinence is a non-solution.

Quote:

The child in the womb has more processing power at conception than bacteria.

So do monkeys.

Quote:

Seriously, we are talking about human life, single celled organisms that do not even classify as animals because they are single celled and do not have nucleia.

Since most abortion proponents are not interested in the late weeks. You will have to stop using appeals to emotion towards a fetus and focus on the brainless bunch of cells that we have before that. The thing that has no processing power nor a head, nor blood.

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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 14 Apr 2011, 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

skafather84
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14 Apr 2011, 7:02 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:

These are good points skafather, define 'needing psychiatric help'?

Obviously consensual cannibalism implies an end-of-life scenario. Suicide by any other name.

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Inuyasha
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14 Apr 2011, 7:08 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:

I consider people who cling to religious dogma to be in need of something, to my mind they seem to be emotionally imature and intellectually lazy, are they fit to make their own decisions given the tendency to deference to an unproved theology?

Seriously, after the comment you just made you have absolutely no business lecturing me on maturity.

RedHanrahan wrote:

Perhaps we value individual lives altogether too much and are altogether too egocentric to tolerate real freedoms or rise to real serious responsibilties?

Sorry, but I refuse to dehumanize children simply cause they can't talk yet, and/or are in an environment which is similar to a sensory deprevation chamber for their entire life up until they finally are ready to leave the womb. Furthermore, as far as being ego-centric, I would say it is the pro-abortion crowd that is being ego-centric. If I ever got a girl pregnent, I would be more than willing to take care of the child, I wouldn't run off.

What is wrong is guys and gals having sex irresponsibly then deciding to murder their offspring because they find the child to be inconveinent and consider their conveinence more important that the child's life. And you want to call me ego-centric for saying people should take responsibility for their own actions?

Man and woman choose to have sex, ends up with a pregnency. The two should take responsibility for the fact they had sex and live with the consequences of the fact they're going to have a baby. If you don't want want a pregnency, how about you not have sex or be sure to take the pill beforehand (and I'm even against the pill because it encourages the irresponsible behavior).

skafather84
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14 Apr 2011, 7:21 pm

Quote:

The child in the womb has more processing power at conception than bacteria.

You truly don't have a clue about biology, do you?

Inuyasha
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14 Apr 2011, 7:26 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Quote:

The child in the womb has more processing power at conception than bacteria.

You truly don't have a clue about biology, do you?

It's apparent I understand more than you do.

Bacterium are single-celled organisms, they lack a nucleus, and in fact every living cell in your body are individually more complex than a bacterium.

skafather84
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14 Apr 2011, 7:29 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Quote:

The child in the womb has more processing power at conception than bacteria.

You truly don't have a clue about biology, do you?

It's apparent I understand more than you do.

Bacterium are single-celled organisms, they lack a nucleus, and in fact every living cell in your body are individually more complex than a bacterium.

The level of stupidity you post on here seriously hurts my brain.

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14 Apr 2011, 7:35 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Quote:

The child in the womb has more processing power at conception than bacteria.

You truly don't have a clue about biology, do you?

It's apparent I understand more than you do.

Bacterium are single-celled organisms, they lack a nucleus, and in fact every living cell in your body are individually more complex than a bacterium.

That is right. But that does not make more complex biological entities persons, does it?

Demonstrate that a zygote of less than three month development is a person.

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14 Apr 2011, 8:56 pm

sartresue wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Has anyone brought up the Idea of abortion as eviction?

if I own an apartment whose tenant will not pay his rent but will die if evicted.
Do I have A right to evict him?

False Equivalency again, the child in the womb did not ask to be conceived, it was not his/her choice in the matter. It was the choice of his/her parents to have sex.

So the fetus's non-choice in being conceived somehow negates it's host's right to choose whether to continue incubating it?

Unwilling hosts topic

This just might complicate matters, but I want to remind all that abortions involving surgery (not the morning after pill) can be damaging to a woman's reproductive organs. This is not to encourage carrying unwanted zefs. My sister has had three abortions, and sadly, when she finally was able to want to start a family, her uterus had been buggered beyond repair, and she had miscarriage after miscarriage. Perhaps one day there will be as remedy for this, or perhaps there ware better methods to ending unwanted pregnancies.

I am prochoice, and the above does nothing to change my mind. Do not take my comments out of context.

The abortion pill, RU486, is not the morning after pill, which doesn't work after pregnancy.
No offense to your sister, but women who choose to have three late term surgical abortions are....well. I've never heard of it, personally.

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14 Apr 2011, 9:02 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

But one thing: how far should one have to go to prove it's consensual?

What would the conditions be for consensual versus someone who needs psychiatric help and cannot actually give consent?

That argument doesn't fly, because most abortions occur because two individuals decide to be immature and have sex with each other, then decide to have an abortion because they consider the child to be inconveinent.

Ad homing the women who get abortions is typical- the women who fought for access to birth control were likewise called whores.
Regardless of how intellectually vacuous that is, your claims are simply untrue.

"The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner."
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

The implication that the process of pregnancy and childbirth are merely an "inconvenience" is no one's but your own,
and it betrays a disgusting lack of empathy for how they impact women's lives.

cave_canem
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14 Apr 2011, 9:14 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Quote:

The child in the womb has more processing power at conception than bacteria.

You truly don't have a clue about biology, do you?

It's apparent I understand more than you do.

Bacterium are single-celled organisms, they lack a nucleus, and in fact every living cell in your body are individually more complex than a bacterium.

At conception, there is no processing power.
At conception, there is only a single cell.

Bacteria may lack nuclei, but some have quite complex structures:
-those with flagella - those little suckers can whip their tails and move around on their own
-those with pili - these little tykes can share their DNA. it's like a pot luck for bacteria

Also, bacteria never die of old age. Who's got the leg up there?

Finally, my red blood cells and platelets are not more complex than a bacterium. Neither are yours.

psychohist
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14 Apr 2011, 9:21 pm

Bethie wrote:

I don't think he said they were late stage abortions. The majority of early abortions in the U.S. are still done surgically rather than with mifepristone, and before 2000, all of them were.

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14 Apr 2011, 9:55 pm

Bethie wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

But one thing: how far should one have to go to prove it's consensual?

What would the conditions be for consensual versus someone who needs psychiatric help and cannot actually give consent?

That's funny cuz I posted the exact same link in this thread and I used it to prove the majority of unwanted pregnancies are the result of improper use of contraception or the lack of. So yes it does mostly occur outta irresponsibility and all this talk about the fetus/embryo being a parasite or worth nothing more than a tapeworm does make it out to be an inconvenience:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Yes I'm aware protection isn't 100%, nothing is inherently guaranteed in life. Hell I'm not even gonna wait til marriage, but if I do happen to get a chick pregnant then my say in the matter would be to not abort. And actually a lot of pregnancies happen as a result of either not using condoms properly or inconsistently using some other form of contraception:

Quote:

• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[8]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Yep, this is the second time I've come back to this thread after I said I was done with it. I couldn't resist, easier said than done. I guess a more realistic thing to claim would be to say I'm not gonna bother addressing falsely equivalent analogies or redundant insistences since this thread has mostly came down to those two, but I might address whatever is new. For the most part though, I don' care too much about the abortion discussion anymore.

blunnet
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15 Apr 2011, 12:03 am

Bethie wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

well, I think it all comes down to, from that perspective (if they support abstinence): "You don't want a baby, DON'T HAVE SEX!", so much as I believe their justificacion would be that women should know how a baby will impact their lives before being sexually active or doing it without protection.

Mind you, I'm not an abstinence supporter and I am pro-choice, but I think that could be a response to your objection given where he seems to come from, but yeah, not many think of the consequences of their actions

And about empathy...... I have very little towards teenagers.

Last edited by blunnet on 15 Apr 2011, 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bethie
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15 Apr 2011, 12:10 am

AceOfSpades wrote:

It is only you who is incessantly insisting that irresponsible sex somehow magically dissolves physical ownership of one's person,
devoid of any reasoning.

AceOfSpades wrote:

and all this talk about the fetus/embryo being a parasite or worth nothing more than a tapeworm does make it out to be an inconvenience:

No, it "makes it out to be" that the fetus has no more "right" to parasitism than does a tapeworm,
and you've yet to provide evidence otherwise.

AceOfSpades wrote:

I guess a more realistic thing to claim would be to say I'm not gonna bother addressing falsely equivalent analogies

You could at least explain why they are falsely equivalent as opposed to simply declaring them so. If you're going to insist on the "rights" of parasites, explain why you should not be held consistent to your views?

AceOfSpades wrote:

or redundant insistences since this thread has mostly came down to those two, but I might address whatever is new. For the most part though, I don' care too much about the abortion discussion anymore.

I'd imagine floundering around to come up with an autonomy-negating argument and finding yourself empty-handed has been very frustrating.

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