OliveOilMom
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07 Jun 2013, 7:55 pm
Shau wrote:
None of that is true, Ms. Olive Oil. In fact, my picture of you as some innocent mother-like figure remains intact, no matter what you say.
I'm very motherlike. I'm very maternal to most everybody under 30.
But also very, very far from innocent.
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OliveOilMom
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07 Jun 2013, 8:01 pm
Spiderpig wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Or, one thing that some girls do I hear is just lay there during it. No movement, no enthusiasm, nothing like that. I'm sure that even though the guy is having pleasure, it's not as much as it could be if the girl actually responded.
I think I wouldn’t want to have sex with her unless I can make her respond by playing a little with her first. It sounds like masturbating against an inanimate object, and I’ve had plenty of that.
OliveOilMom wrote:
And yeah, your penis can suffer during bad or incorrectly performed sex. Trust me on that one. While it probably won't have as much trauma as a raped woman's vagina. Then again, badly performed sex isn't going to tear her up like rape will. Rough sex can.
It still seems to require a lot of active coöperation from the man. Without it, the woman would have to fight him to do much more than hug him with her legs, and that seems pretty unlikely to damage his penis.
I appreciate your insight, and I don’t want to look like I’m trying to lecture you or anybody else on something I obviously know almost nothing about (there seems to be an aspie tendency for that, and I definitely have it), but, according to what I’ve read and what I’ve heard women say, sex can become unenjoyable for women in much more subtle ways than due to physical injury, and they can also be easily injured by an unwanted penetration, without the need to catch them off guard and make a strange motion like you’d have to do to damage a man’s penis. From a naïve male point of view, it’s hard to imagine how this works, but it makes sense considering evolution tends to make females much more picky than males, so there is indeed a reason to expect that something will prevent them from enjoying sex with a mate they don’t like very much, in a much more profound way than it would happen to a man.
I’ve similarly learned as purely theoretical knowledge that it’s generally very unpleasant, invasive and degrading for a woman, e.g., to have a breast caressed out of the blue. It’s hard for me to relate, because, barring unessential factors like fearing she’d mug me or something like that, if a woman were to just caress my chest, I’d be very unlikely not to enjoy it at least a little. It took me a few years since I first devoted some thought to this to develop a dim idea about the great deal of trust every little move towards physical intimacy takes for a woman. Even if she were actually stronger than the man, she’d still have a female brain, adapted to the opposite case. I’m not used to being knowingly feared, so it took me this long to realize a woman is actually showing courage when she makes certain advances. Knowing this makes it all the more lovely.
I'm not going into a lot of detail to as to what can happen to a guy down there during sex, but I'll give you one example. Just biting down during a blowjob, even nibbling a little too hard can be pretty damn painful for a guy. Also, when the girl is on top, leaning too far backwards and squeezing really hard can as well. Plus, when the girls on top she has to always remember to be careful of the balls as well. Being too enthusiastic and coming down too hard and her rear end hitting them with some force can feel almost like a kick in the nuts from what I've been told.
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OliveOilMom
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07 Jun 2013, 8:08 pm
puddingmouse wrote:
MindBlind wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
MindBlind wrote:
Did you watch the video?
As for "looking more genuine", you have no idea what is happening behind the scenes. It's amateur. Plus, many of these amateur performers are making money through ads on their websites or are selling their content independently. Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but you have to admit that there is more room for nefarious things to happen in a amateur production. In the professional porn industry, they have way more strict rules and guidelines to follow.
You say that the industry routinely abuses the performers. Mind telling me how?
Also, it's not up to you if people decide to sell sex. That's the point of sex work - to sell it. That's like saying that art should never be sold because you do it for fun. Like, seriously? It's not your business what people do with their bodies.
I'll watch it later and tell you what I think.
It's true that I have no idea what's happening behind the scenes, but you don't have ex-amatuer actors (from the Western world, anyway) talking about the trauma they've endured and campaigning against porn.
If you want to know how the industry routinely abuses performers, listen to the people who've exited the industry. I have no vested interest in believing that they're making it all up, unlike people still in the industry. EDIT: unless they're Shelley Lubben who probably made quite a lot up.
I never said I wanted to outlaw the porn industr. I was just saying what my attitude to sex was and why I'm inclined to boycott people who try to make serious money out of it. I wasn't telling anyone else what to do, just explaining my own opinion.
Well, one could say that porn in the black market is a form of amateur pornography. It's not regulated and it could even have once been a personal tape. In fact, with amateur stuff, that actually happens a lot. Plenty of ex lovers will release old sex tapes to the internet as a form of revenge. This is a huge issue as the victims of this may not have been aware they were being recorded at the time and they often get harassed and stalked by people. At least with a professional, they know what they are getting into, they are well aware of what is happening and they are more likely to get people to help them out in case of any legal problems.
In 2004, porn star Darren James was diagnosed with HIV. Because of this, the mainstream porn industry in the states almost completely shut down. The fact that they regularly test the performers, recommend the use of condoms (in some companies, it is a requirement) and were willing to stop filming until they investigated the other performers shows that the mainstream porn industry in the united states is, by and large, concerned with the welfare of their performers. And while many businesses do evil things, the porn industry are especially f**** if they are doing something illegal, especially considering how many people are actively trying to ban it or restrict what they do.
I think it's interesting that you accuse current porn stars of lying for the industry and don't question the intentions of the ones attacking it. How do I know that these people are genuine and why would these current porn stars lie? And even if they are genuine, how would it mean that the entire industry is wrong? It could be that particular director or that particular company or whatever.
You don't agree with banning the porn industry, but you want to boycott people that want to make money from sex on camera? That's the same thing as boycotting the industry. Or is it that they can make so much money until you think it's wrong? How much are people allowed to make from sex, Puddingmouse? How much until you think it's unethical and exploitation? If I paint something and sell it in a gallery for, say, £2000, is that unethical? What about if someone makes a print of it and I get a share of the profit? Does it devalue my work if it's printed on paper or viewable on a screen? To me, what you are saying about sex is tantamount to saying that I can't sell my art for "serious money" because that's somehow immoral to make a profit from my own work, of my own volition.
Oh, I see that you watched the video I sent you, but you still haven't named the other ex-porn stars you mentioned. If you can give me a list of names, I would be very grateful.
Sex and art aren't the same thing. The analogy doesn't even work because no-one was ever raped by a painting or felt degraded when making a collage.
Too much money (FOR ME) is simply when it's made primarily for the money instead of just the kick of having sex on camera.
As for the privacy thing - there's the issue that they're not going to recall your video if you don't want it out there any more in pro porn. Not that that negates the problem with amatuer you raised, which is a valid point.
Anyway, you can't make me watch pro porn just like I can't make you stop watching it. I don't like professional porn. It's boring and joyless and exploitative in the same way every other capitalist enterprise is. I'm not obliged to like it. I don't like watching people have sex for money. It's not my thing. I don't like the idea of money and sex mixing. That's just the way I am.
I can't be bothered with the discussion, or getting you that long list. You can take this as you winning the debate, if you like - I'm not bothered. People have different values when it comes to sex. Go and enjoy yourself.
I think I get what you're saying. That with pro porn they are just doing it for the money and aren't really enjoying it or getting into it and all, so except for the fact of penetration and the guy's orgasm, it's basically simulated sex. And it's definitely simulated desire. Is it the fact that there is no real lust and desire and "OMG I really just want to screw your brains out and I don't care if somebody films it or not!" feeling there the thing that makes you not like it?
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OliveOilMom
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07 Jun 2013, 8:12 pm
JNathanK wrote:
Well, it is misogynistic, because it objectifies women by reducing them to objects or bodies that get oggled at and commodified. This may not even apply to all porn, but this does apply to a significant portion of what's produced.
But doesn't it objectify men too?
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OliveOilMom
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07 Jun 2013, 8:13 pm
JNathanK wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
JNathanK wrote:
Well, it is misogynistic, because it objectifies women by reducing them to objects or bodies that get oggled at and commodified This may not even apply to all porn, but this does apply to a significant portion of what's produced.
federal... and the real world consequences of these dreadful processes for actua people are...?
There's a growing generation of kids exposed to this stuff, and its probably bringing them up with unrealistic expectations about sex and just generally head f***ing an entire generation.
I think rape will probably become more common too. It might not be happening in any immediate sense, but just wait till society just collapses a little bit more. Prostitution and rape will probably run rampant at some point due to this over-saturation to porn. Its really just a giant social experiement, and we really don't know where its leading to because this is the first time in history so much unlimited access to porn has been available to everyone, but I think its a very possible outcome. I wouldn't be surprized either that juvenile to juvenile sexual abuse may become more common as well, since a bunch of 8 year olds are looking at porn now and are likely to copy and emulate what they're exposed to.
http://news.oneindia.in/2013/04/22/is-t ... 99489.html
This is probably a more valid correlation than simply concluding the internet reduces rape because rape rates were lower in states that addopted the internet first.
Well, either that or every guy that ever gets a job delivering pizza is going to expect to be paid with a blowjob.
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07 Jun 2013, 9:02 pm
OliveOilMom
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07 Jun 2013, 9:13 pm
puddingmouse wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
I think I get what you're saying. That with pro porn they are just doing it for the money and aren't really enjoying it or getting into it and all, so except for the fact of penetration and the guy's orgasm, it's basically simulated sex. And it's definitely simulated desire. Is it the fact that there is no real lust and desire and "OMG I really just want to screw your brains out and I don't care if somebody films it or not!" feeling there the thing that makes you not like it?
Yeah, you get it.
Yay! I got it right! In other words, porn is like the veggie burger of sex. It looks like the real thing, it works like the real thing, but it's just not as satisfying
Sort of like those phone sex lines where you talk to somebody that pretends to be into it when actually they are watching tv with the sound off or doing their nails the whole time.
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08 Jun 2013, 4:13 pm
09 Jun 2013, 12:41 am
MjrMajorMajor wrote:
V_for_Verbose wrote:
LKL wrote:
Men are subjects in traditional porn; they are active, they 'do something' to the women, who are passive objects which have something done to them. That is literal objectification.
Precisely my point.
I still believe that this speaks more about mindsets than the porn itself, but I'm done arguing. It reminds me of the Madonna/whore issue. Because everything is of course that black and white.
I pointedly didn't say that 'sex' is like that, or that 'all porn' is like that; I said 'traditional porn.' By which I mean most professional, main-stream porn. Part of my problem with that is that it *isn't* like what any woman I know, at least know well enough to talk about the subject, would consider 'good' sex. I've known more than one woman who's had a boyfriend who tried to use that sort of talk, that sort of change-position-every-10-seconds, that sort of go-for-15-minutes-straight sort of intromission. It reminds me of men who think that the male look preferred by gay men is the same as the male look preferred by women: what attracts us, and what we find sexy, is often not the same. One of the problems with porn is that actresses pretending to enjoy that sort of thing convince some young men that it IS 'what women want.'
09 Jun 2013, 9:53 am
OliveOilMom wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
I think I get what you're saying. That with pro porn they are just doing it for the money and aren't really enjoying it or getting into it and all, so except for the fact of penetration and the guy's orgasm, it's basically simulated sex. And it's definitely simulated desire. Is it the fact that there is no real lust and desire and "OMG I really just want to screw your brains out and I don't care if somebody films it or not!" feeling there the thing that makes you not like it?
Yeah, you get it.
Yay! I got it right! In other words, porn is like the veggie burger of sex. It looks like the real thing, it works like the real thing, but it's just not as satisfying
Sort of like those phone sex lines where you talk to somebody that pretends to be into it when actually they are watching tv with the sound off or doing their nails the whole time.
Well, if that's the case then wouldn't that make porn more ethical than "real sex"? I dunno, but the veggie burger analogy kinda backfired there.
It's not simulated sex if two people are actually having sex. A simulation would be, like, an animation of sex or something cleverly edited to look like it's sex. If they are actually engaging in sex on screen, it's still sex even if it's done for the pleasure of the audience and not entirely for their own pleasure.
Oh and please don't determine for others what sex is more satisfying for them. It's their sexuality.
OliveOilMom
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09 Jun 2013, 11:57 am
MindBlind wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
I think I get what you're saying. That with pro porn they are just doing it for the money and aren't really enjoying it or getting into it and all, so except for the fact of penetration and the guy's orgasm, it's basically simulated sex. And it's definitely simulated desire. Is it the fact that there is no real lust and desire and "OMG I really just want to screw your brains out and I don't care if somebody films it or not!" feeling there the thing that makes you not like it?
Yeah, you get it.
Yay! I got it right! In other words, porn is like the veggie burger of sex. It looks like the real thing, it works like the real thing, but it's just not as satisfying
Sort of like those phone sex lines where you talk to somebody that pretends to be into it when actually they are watching tv with the sound off or doing their nails the whole time.
Well, if that's the case then wouldn't that make porn more ethical than "real sex"? I dunno, but the veggie burger analogy kinda backfired there.
It's not simulated sex if two people are actually having sex. A simulation would be, like, an animation of sex or something cleverly edited to look like it's sex. If they are actually engaging in sex on screen, it's still sex even if it's done for the pleasure of the audience and not entirely for their own pleasure.
Oh and please don't determine for others what sex is more satisfying for them. It's their sexuality.
I have no problem with porn. I was trying to ask if I had interpreted Puddingmouse's position correctly. And ethics have nothing to do with the veggie burger analogy. That meant that while it may look and taste like the real thing, it is not. The way porn looks like people who are attracted to each other doing things they want to do to each other when in fact they are just following a script. I was trying to ask whether or not I had her opinion about it correct. I personally like porn from time to time.
As for determining what makes sex satisfying for others, you actually think I did that there? I did not, I said that a real hamburger is more satisfying than a fake one - for an analogy.
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13 Jun 2013, 5:59 am
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