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The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

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Pepe
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06 Dec 2022, 9:07 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
AFAIK, from various memories and family stories - German army was way better discilpined and, generally, just an army, running a horrible war that included attacking civilian targets (but the allies did this, too). Nazi Germany took pride in German military traditions, both in terms of conquer and discipline.
The attrocitous ones were SS - and, of course, the whole concentration and death camps system (which was partially ran by SS and which started before the war started).

Nazi Germans had conflicting morality. Soviet Russians, too. I believe most of the horrible mass-scale attrocities around the world are done by people of "conflicting morality".


The Wehrmacht wasn't a great fan of the SS, btw.
They considered them a parade army. “Asphalt soldiers”.
Quote:
Although they were derisively dismissed as Himmler’s “asphalt soldiers” by the OKW high command, the troops of the Waffen-SS were superbly equipped and tended to have high morale.
Waffen-SS made up less than 5 percent of the Wehrmacht, but it accounted for nearly one-fourth of Germany’s panzer divisions and roughly one-third of the Wehrmacht’s panzer grenadier (mechanized infantry) divisions.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Wehrmacht

The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.
Ironically, in the beginning, only those without a criminal record could join the LSSAH/SS.



Quote:
The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.


WTF that has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve heard on here

Did they have traditional moral standards while they loaded Jews into cattle carts or invaded other countries.

Conscripts I can feel sorry for signed up Nazi’s no


Misrepresentation is common.
You misunderstood what was written.

The Wehrmacht was separate from the SS organisation under Himmler.
The SS represented 5% of the German army.

Klearly, you have little knowledge of WWII.
I do not. ;)

Perhaps you didn't read this part of my post:
Pepe wrote:
Waffen-SS made up less than 5 percent of the Wehrmacht

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=409725&start=256#p9187204

Plz read more carefully in future. ;)



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06 Dec 2022, 9:42 pm

magz wrote:
^ Signed up nazis ended up primarily in the SS, as opposed to Wehrmacht.


There were laws that prevented most German citizens from signing up for Himmler's SS, hence the interest in recruiting personnel from occupied countries.

magz wrote:
But Germans of that time had a culture of authority and discipline, so if their orders were attrocitous...


There have been studies on this.
(It found that most ppl were prepared to torture others if they were "ordered"/directed to do so.)
The problem was "The Führerprinzip".

Quote:
The Führerprinzip (German: [ˈfyːʀɐpʀɪnˌtsiːp] (listen); German for 'leader principle') prescribed the fundamental basis of political authority in the Government of Nazi Germany. This principle can be most succinctly understood to mean that "the Führer's word is above all written law" and that governmental policies, decisions, and offices ought to work toward the realization of this end.[1] In actual political usage, it refers mainly to the practice of dictatorship within the ranks of a political party itself, and as such, it has become an earmark of political fascism. Nazi Germany aimed to implement the leader principle at all levels of society, with as many organizations and institutions as possible being run by an individual appointed leader rather than by an elected committee. This included schools,[2] sports associations,[3] factories,[4] and more. Nazi propaganda often focused on the theme of a single heroic leader overcoming the adversity of committees, bureaucrats and parliaments.[5] German history, from Nordic sagas to Frederick the Great and Otto von Bismarck, was interpreted to emphasize the value of unquestioning obedience to a visionary leader.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrerprinzip

Interestingly, ratified in law, the modern Wehrmacht authorities had to respect the right of its members to refuse an order against their principles.

Quote:
As a result, many German soldiers refuse combat assignments or disobey orders—with no consequence. Their ability to do so has been repeatedly held up in civil courts (Germany has no military courts) and in the federal government.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=German+so ... &FORM=PERE


magz wrote:
I'm not sure about how active Wehrmacht was in e.g. this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre
The order came from SS but probably the regular army was involved, too.

Soviet nazi collaborators were sent there and they... weren't famous for discipline, to say the least.


Such is the atrocity of war.
In the obscenity of the bombing of Dresden, I read that some allied bomber crews refused the order to bomb a refugee hub and dropped their bombs beforehand.
War crimes were performed on both sides.



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07 Dec 2022, 2:43 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't dispute there is widespread support from the Russian population for Putin. But their is widespread propaganda about Ukraine being taken over by Nazis. I think (rightly or wrongly) a lot of Russians have bought into this propaganda.
Just like the historical nazis bought into propaganda that Jews were to blame for all their misery.
It's a common way of evil - to make people believe others are evil so any harm to them would be justified.
I believe it brings us back to the OP rapes, too.


I think the German population went one step further than the Russians in that the indoctrination was specifically based on racial heirarchy which led to a firm belief in racial hygiene. This made the volume of people they killed and the way they killed gruesome. To me this is far scarier, just imagine if you were one of the groups targeted by the Nazis. It would be like living in the zombie apocalypse and every German around you is essentially a zombie. To me that would be far more horrific.

But yes, you are right, indoctrination works both ways, It's just Germans were indoctrinated with anti-semistism for centuries prior to Nazism.

Nazi propaganda was race-oriented, soviet propaganda was class-oriented (in a flexible way that could target practically anyone inconvenient to the party).
My family was in groups targeted by both nazis (Jewish-looking Slavs) and soviets (educated Poles). It's an enormous luck and many thin chances that have lead to the fact that I could be born - and an inter-generational C-PTSD is still present in my family.
And it's nothing unusual here.


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07 Dec 2022, 7:12 am

Yep….glad you’re here now :)

I’m fortunate that my forebears left Belarus in 1910.



magz
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07 Dec 2022, 7:21 am

Yeah, Belarus wasn't a good place to live in middle 20th century. If your ancestors were Jewish, they'd probably find Soviets a lesser evil - otherwise, they'd likely find the nazis the lesser evil.
The truth was, both were hellishly evil and lucky who was away from them at that times.


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07 Dec 2022, 4:20 pm

Pepe wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
AFAIK, from various memories and family stories - German army was way better discilpined and, generally, just an army, running a horrible war that included attacking civilian targets (but the allies did this, too). Nazi Germany took pride in German military traditions, both in terms of conquer and discipline.
The attrocitous ones were SS - and, of course, the whole concentration and death camps system (which was partially ran by SS and which started before the war started).

Nazi Germans had conflicting morality. Soviet Russians, too. I believe most of the horrible mass-scale attrocities around the world are done by people of "conflicting morality".


The Wehrmacht wasn't a great fan of the SS, btw.
They considered them a parade army. “Asphalt soldiers”.
Quote:
Although they were derisively dismissed as Himmler’s “asphalt soldiers” by the OKW high command, the troops of the Waffen-SS were superbly equipped and tended to have high morale.
Waffen-SS made up less than 5 percent of the Wehrmacht, but it accounted for nearly one-fourth of Germany’s panzer divisions and roughly one-third of the Wehrmacht’s panzer grenadier (mechanized infantry) divisions.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Wehrmacht

The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.
Ironically, in the beginning, only those without a criminal record could join the LSSAH/SS.



Quote:
The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.


WTF that has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve heard on here

Did they have traditional moral standards while they loaded Jews into cattle carts or invaded other countries.

Conscripts I can feel sorry for signed up Nazi’s no


Misrepresentation is common.
You misunderstood what was written.

The Wehrmacht was separate from the SS organisation under Himmler.
The SS represented 5% of the German army.

Klearly, you have little knowledge of WWII.
I do not. ;)

Perhaps you didn't read this part of my post:
Pepe wrote:
Waffen-SS made up less than 5 percent of the Wehrmacht

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=409725&start=256#p9187204

Plz read more carefully in future. ;)


While Wikipedia is not the most accurate source here`s a few links:

The Myth of the clean Wehrmacht

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_t ... Background

The SS



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

Basically anyone competent & fitting the racial profile was eligible to join the SS including Wehrmacht troops that could be released from their service area, any perceived rivalry between the two was probably the same that existed between any two areas in an organisation that have differing immediate job or individual career objectives, like ordinary beat cops & detectives at a murder scene, that is often portrayed in movies. When it comes to the crunch they are all on the same side.

Finally the subject discussed:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_duri ... .S._troops


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Pepe
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07 Dec 2022, 5:12 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I’m fortunate that my forebears left Belarus in 1910.


SECURITY!!
"Reds under the beds" alert! 8O



Pepe
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07 Dec 2022, 5:14 pm

magz wrote:
Yeah, Belarus wasn't a good place to live in middle 20th century. If your ancestors were Jewish, they'd probably find Soviets a lesser evil - otherwise, they'd likely find the nazis the lesser evil.
The truth was, both were hellishly evil and lucky who was away from them at that times.


Yet some don't see it.



Pepe
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07 Dec 2022, 5:23 pm

carlos55 wrote:

While Wikipedia is not the most accurate source here`s a few links:

The Myth of the clean Wehrmacht

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_t ... Background

The SS



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

Basically anyone competent & fitting the racial profile was eligible to join the SS including Wehrmacht troops that could be released from their service area, any perceived rivalry between the two was probably the same that existed between any two areas in an organisation that have differing immediate job or individual career objectives, like ordinary beat cops & detectives at a murder scene, that is often portrayed in movies. When it comes to the crunch they are all on the same side.

Finally the subject discussed:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_duri ... .S._troops


Yes, Wikipedia is an unreliable source when it comes to politics.
ANYONE can contribute, and it depends on the integrity of the ppl monitoring the contributions.

I am not saying every political article is inaccurate.
One simply has to keep an open mind and use personal experience to make a judgement call.

I intend to respond to your post at a later time.



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10 Dec 2022, 2:41 am

If Russia had got to Japan first, the women of Japan would have faced similar treatment.


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10 Dec 2022, 5:10 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
If Russia had got to Japan first, the women of Japan would have faced similar treatment.


Why wouldn't it have happened?
Rape is part of the Russian military tradition because the leaders turn a blind eye.
Where does this happen in modern-day western armies?



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10 Dec 2022, 5:55 am

Pepe wrote:
Rape is part of the Russian military tradition because the leaders turn a blind eye.


Oh brother, back to the basics for this one
https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c3270



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10 Dec 2022, 11:47 am

^^^^ Am thinking your link might be bad .^^^^

Leads to a page , but there is a blank space where the main article would seem to go .
And could not find a revolent topic in the sidebar on that link ? But it does discuss Europe.
On the sidebar.


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10 Dec 2022, 6:03 pm

Jakki wrote:
^^^^ Am thinking your link might be bad .^^^^

Leads to a page , but there is a blank space where the main article would seem to go .
And could not find a revolent topic in the sidebar on that link ? But it does discuss Europe.
On the sidebar.


Quote:
British Medical Journal Editorials
Rape as a weapon of war in modern conflicts

BMJ 2010; 340 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.c3270 (Published 24 June 2010)
Cite this as: BMJ 2010;340:c3270
Families and communities are victims, as well as individuals

Rape is deployed as a weapon of war in countries throughout the world, from Bosnia to Sudan, Peru to Tibet. Rape includes lack of consent to sex as well as provision of sex to avoid harm and obtain basic necessities. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court recognises that rape and other forms of sexual violence by combatants in the conduct of armed conflict are war crimes and can constitute genocide. Sexual violence such as forced marriage, female genital mutilation, and rape as a precursor to murder constitute torture under international law and are breaches of the Geneva Convention. Rape, as with all terror warfare, is not exclusively an attack on the body—it is an attack on the “body politic.” Its goal is not to maim or kill one person but to control an entire sociopolitical process by crippling it. It is an attack directed equally against personal identity and cultural integrity.

Rape has long been perpetrated during war. Since the second world war, however, rape has assumed strategic importance, and is now a deliberate military strategy.3 Women are now not only raped but physically scarred and mutilated. In recent conflicts, rape has been used as a reward for victory in battle, a boost to troops Morale.


Again I am not absolving the Russians of blame, they must account for their historical crimes. But then again I don't see why the need to hyperfocus on Russians and keep saying it's "their tradition" when it (as it's mentioned a considerable number of times) self evidently its been used as a tactic of war by literally everyone

In the context of WWII (Which is the period the OP is focussed on) I find it strange that the OP pretends that retribution had no part to play in what happened in Berlin given the Nazi state (which was supported by the civilians of Berlin) did far worse against the women of the Soviet Union. Seems oddly lacking empathy and also an unhealthy fixation which can't be good for his mental health.



Last edited by Cornflake on 10 Dec 2022, 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Enclosed article text in quote tags

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10 Dec 2022, 8:36 pm

Hate to say this. But the take away from this posting , that a country on the losing side of war.. All the women in the affected areas might be better off to commit suicide ? As a individual.. would either fight to the death but in otherwise hopeless situation as described .. perhaps the best idea would be to let the conquering heroes “R” dead bodies .. instead of live ones ?? And my intentions in life are not to take human life .. So what kind of decisions would be left..especially, if i considered my home as my sanctuary ??? Perhaps alittle respect for all genders should be employed universally . Or Perhaps this human race needs to be extinct ? No one to reproduce , so no new life on the planet ?
But War is the excuse for absolutely destructive moral levels against the human race.?


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10 Dec 2022, 8:48 pm

Jakki wrote:
Hate to say this. But the take away from this posting , that a country on the losing side of war.. All the women in the affected areas might be better off to commit suicide ? As a individual.. would either fight to the death but in otherwise hopeless situation as described .. perhaps the best idea would be to let the conquering heroes “R” dead bodies .. instead of live ones ?? And my intentions in life are not to take human life .. So what kind of decisions would be left..especially, if i considered my home as my sanctuary ??? Perhaps alittle respect for all genders should be employed universally . Or Perhaps this human race needs to be extinct ? No one to reproduce , so no new life on the planet ?
But War is the excuse for absolutely destructive moral levels against the human race.?


The take-home message is that war (or at least the prospect of war) is a reality for most of humanity in 2022. Even if you read about the united nations peace-keepers stationed in east Africa or Indian peacekeepers stationed in Kashmir or Sri Lanka they employed rape or molested women/girls in their area of protection.

Like human trafficking, we all abhor it, but it still happens.

The issue does not exist in a bubble in Germany in 1945 or Ukraine in 2022. And because it happens in the third world doesn't make their victims less worthy of our anger than blonde women in Germany and Ukraine.