Is there any proof God exists?

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Narrator
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10 Feb 2015, 12:19 am

Oldavid wrote:

If I call the bluff and say why you're impossibly wrong it's an insult. If you dismiss my argument with patronising scoffing it's science.

Who can argue with that?

You mischaracterize your handling of our comments. You call us wrong with prejudicial pejoratives.

"Impossibly wrong" I can work with. What I can't work with is prejudice, especially when it is invectively a part of almost every post.

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10 Feb 2015, 3:23 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

I wish this thread would evolve some way.

It seems like it's stuck in some kind of rut--almost like a "broken record" on a turntable record player.

The only way proof could be obtained that God/gods/etc exist is if the God/gods/etc reveals Him/Her/Itself to a person or person.

Alas, it's still a subjective impression, so there could never be "scientific" proof that God/gods/etc. exists--

Unless the God/gods/etc reveals Him/Her/Itself to all of us.

Maybe you are too weak to see him. Have you thought about that.

Try looking at the sun for a seconds I bet your eyes will hurt.

In the orthodox Abrahamic tradition, God is too powerful , if he unveiled himself, you'd die instantly.

Cyd
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10 Feb 2015, 5:13 am

My favorite anecdote with regard to the absurdity of arguing about it is the atheist who picked up an orrery from the desk of a theist and asked "Who made this?", to which the theist replied, "Nobody.". LOL - that cracks me up every time.

What always strikes me about this whole argument is the automatic assumption that "design" = "God". Why must it be a God? Why can't it just be someone with a better understanding of how the universe works? Pfft.

Whether it's a God or the laws that govern this universe, what does it matter? Man has been in constant conflict with it, from day one. Things are the way they are and work the way they work and man has been at odds with "it", since...practically for his ever.

If you think about it, it's nothing more than a really old meme. "I have the ability to think, therefore I know that the laws that govern the universe are wrong.". "Truth, reality and the universe are all defective.", that's man's take on it all.

Perhaps it is a phase - like the "terrible twos". Sentience is little more than an infant, in the grand scheme of things - thinking man knows what's what is absurd.

Has anyone ever bothered to ask the universe what's what? We don't exist OUTSIDE of this universe - consciousness doesn't exist OUTSIDE of it - it's a part of it. Whatever consciousness there is, the WHOLE of it is the consciousness OF this universe. And that's NOT "pie in the sky" - it's MATH.

The universe is conscious. You KNOW that because YOU'RE conscious. ASK it - NOT for "proof" that you're right, but for a display of what's actually what, DESPITE what you believe. Just ASK it. Ask it OFTEN. It's a lifelong exploration and conversation. There's no end to it. There is no "definitive" scope to it. It's what draws the life in you forward - exploration - discovery. Life's a hoot! Life's SUPPOSED to be a HOOT - ensuring the continued interest OF it which perpetually draws it forward and into more life.

That's my take, anyway. If you quit worrying about irrelevancies, life's a hoot - who CARES where it came from?!?!

I think autism is a perfect example of it. We exist and we exist in THIS universe. It's our home, too, and NOBODY has the authority to declare us "mistakes" or "defects".

Last edited by Cyd on 10 Feb 2015, 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

DentArthurDent
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10 Feb 2015, 5:16 am

sophisticated wrote:

Maybe you are too weak to see him. Have you thought about that.

Maybe you are too weak to admit that this life is all there is and are therefore to weak to think rationally. Have you thought about that

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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 10 Feb 2015, 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Feb 2015, 5:23 am

Oldavid wrote:

I have not seen any "actual science and math".

Really! Are you quite sure about this? Maybe I am mistaken but I am fairly sure that I have posted this on at least 4 occasions possibly more:

DentArthurDent wrote:

I really don't think you get it, you do not seem to understand the full nature of the amount of energy coming from the sun nor the amount of energy required for the evolution of all life on this planet. I can furnish you with the maths if you like, but essentially the the amount of entropy for all lifeforms on the planet would be around -302 j/ks yet the amount of energy throughput coming into the system from the sun is around 420 x 10 to the power of 12 J/Ks. In short your argument is nonsense. Areas of the universe can decrease in entropy so long as other areas increase by a greater amount, entropy is not universal in the sense of the a steady increase throughout all areas of the universe. Another canard you are guilty of is to assume evolution is all about increased complexity, it is not, it is about adaptability. And on a final note it's also necessary to deal with the canard that entropy equals 'disorder'. This is a non-rigorous view of entropy that scientists engaged in precise work discarded some time ago. Not least because there are documented examples of systems that have a precisely calculated entropy increase after spontaneously self-organising into well-defined structures. Phospholipids are the classic example of such a system - a suspension of phospholipids in aqueous solution will spontaneously self-assemble into structures such as micelles, bilayer sheets and liposomes upon receiving an energy input consisting of nothing more than gentle agitation. To Quote a paper from 1998

Gentle Force Of Entropy Bridges Disciplines by David Kestenbaum, Science, 279: 1849 (20th March 1998)
Kestenbaum, 1998 wrote:Normally, entropy is a force of disorder rather than organization. But physicists have recently explored the ways in which an increase in entropy in one part of a system can force another part into greater order. The findings have rekindled speculation that living cells might take advantage of this little-known trick of physics.

And from wikibooks:Structural Biochemistry/Lipids/Micelles

Micelles form spontaneously in water, as stated above this spontaneous arrangement is due to the amphipatic nature of the molecule. The driving force for this arrangement is the hydrophobic interactions the molecules experience. When the hydrophobic tails are not sequestered from water this results in in the water forming an organized cage around the hydrophobic tail and this entropy is unfavorable. However, when the lipids form micelles the hydrophobic tails interact with each other, and this interaction releases water from the hydrophobic tail and this increases the disorder of the system, and this is increase in entropy is favorable

Entropy and evolution Daniel F. Styera

The common canard amongst YECS and OEC alike is that evolution always moves forward in greater complexity. This is not so. Evolution moves in whatever direction the environment pushes it.

The full maths in contained in the link to Daniel F. Styera

So once again David please if you can, using actual or theoretical physics supported by maths, falsify it.

Oh btw, If this math is too infantile for a mind so great as yours I have plenty more studies of greater complexity for you to work off.

Last edited by DentArthurDent on 10 Feb 2015, 5:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

ApertaVerbum
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10 Feb 2015, 5:25 am

Not according to logic.

Can't remember the Greek guy's name but he said something like;

Can God make a boulder so large God cannot pick it up?
In either case the result is that God cannot be all powerful

Intelligent design implies I should worship the G'ould out of Stargate, or some real equivalent. So I'm not on board with that.

I'm just happy going by Kantian ethics, rather than religious dogma

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10 Feb 2015, 7:01 am

ApertaVerbum wrote:

Um…the "rock so large" is a silly word game. This is just like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?" or "can water not be wet?" Go read up on the logical law of non-contradiction. An all-powerful being who chooses not to act contrary to His nature is not less powerful.

I've also offered this paradox as a possible solution: God CAN make such a rock…AND lift it!

Indulging in such silliness doesn't really solve anything, nor does it move the discussion forward.

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10 Feb 2015, 7:21 am

AngelRho wrote:

ApertaVerbum wrote:

Before we prove a physical entity and ascribe to it Godhood, first we have to describe what criteria God must meet. To be all powerful God must be able to pick up any thing no matter how large, to be all powerful God must be able to make something so large nothing can move it.

Its not a futile discussion, it points out one important thing, how large would a boulder need to be before only God could lift it? If such a marker is set and something else can lift it, does that thing become God as well?

The real aim is to ascertain at what point something ascends to be God. Even if you believe in just one (Catholic) God, that God must have its own criteria one of which seems to be a focus on humility, yet at what point did God decide to stop being humble and decide that everything in creation should worship it.

The point being that to be God you must adhere to certain beliefs, if consider that some people believe in intelligent design, we are at a stage now where designer babies are something we can create, does this mean that humans have become the 'Intelligent designers' of our own race. If so, is it unfeasible that in the future we gain time travel technology go back and seed Earth with life. does that mean that humans are the God attributed to intelligent design?

Is there a fundamental reason why humans are not God? We can create rocks and lift them after all.

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10 Feb 2015, 7:28 am

And as a further point, 'A silly word game'? Maybe you forget John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word and the word was God"

God may be silly to you, but his games are interesting to people who enjoy intellectual debates over closed minded belief.

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Andrejake
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10 Feb 2015, 7:44 am

AngelRho wrote:

As a believer and someone who likes to try to understand God's existence and things like that I have a different view for this question.
To me, God works through logic. This mean that He can create everything that is logically possible.
So He can creates the World, Galaxy, Atoms, animals, me... But can God create something that is logically impossible? No
Can God create a stone so heavy that he can't lift it? NO
Can God create a square circle? NO
Can God create a one ended stick? NO
Do you understand what I mean?

About some people opinions about "If God is so good why there is so much suffering in the world? Why doesn't he end all the hunger, wars, diseases and stuff like that?".
Well, still on the matter that God only do logically possible things if when he created us humans and gave us free will he then created a new rule: "You have free will. You can do whatever you want, but when i say whatever you want i actually mean only good things", wouldn't it be the biggest contradictory situation we have ever seen? He would even be contradictory with himself as God.
God haven't gave us "half" free will, he gave us free will. If mankind decided to go and do bad things with this "gift" it is beyond God power (yes, it is) to just come and stop it all. It's the consequence of what mankind choose and to simply undo this things with some kind of magic would be the same thing that create a square circle.

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10 Feb 2015, 8:03 am

When I was a Christian, I saw it this way.

Reality is as much a part of creation as is matter, energy and time. A hypothetical rock is a part of this reality and has dimension, mass and vector which are limits that don't exist outside of this creation.

Now that I'm no longer Christian, I can see the same concepts without the need for a deity. That tells me that both things are possible, but also that any possible deity, entity, FSM or whatever, would be far beyond our comprehension. We see a rock and relate to that rock, so in our brains we make any possible entity an anthropomorphism that can fit in our brains. And such an anthropomorphism also suggests a relationship.

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10 Feb 2015, 8:20 am

Yes, and right there is where faith comes in.
And I do accept that God is infinitely wiser and powerful than me, and I accept that there are things that I (and no one else) will ever completely understand, but I do believe that our sense of logic is somehow derived by God's logic and they are in a way comparable.
Answering the question of the OP, no. There is no proof for God's existence but also there is no proof of its inexistence and there never will until/if the sky open Jesus come back and the world as we know end.
Until then all we have is faith, both to believe and to do not believe.

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10 Feb 2015, 10:31 am

Yep; god gave us all free will. Free will to believe in him and follow his rules, without doubt or question or burn in hell for eternity.

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ApertaVerbum
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10 Feb 2015, 11:32 am

badgerface wrote:

Yep; god gave us all free will. Free will to believe in him and follow his rules, without doubt or question or burn in hell for eternity.

I've always considered free will a bit of a problem. You cannot observe something without altering it, so either God is ignoring us or God is altering our lives and thus removing some aspects of free will.

They really need to rewrite the Bible to be more like Aesop's fables, wisdom without faith is universal.

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10 Feb 2015, 11:36 am

Cyd wrote:

Yes.. i agree.. the devil's in the details of thinking..

And GOD IS IN BIG PICTURE THINKING..

THEREFORE.. potentially polar opposite views for folks who think in details..
as opposed to those who think in BIG PICTURE WAYS..

OR BOTH..

and the SPECTRUM of all of that...IS
GOD TO
ME..

TOO....

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10 Feb 2015, 11:47 am

ApertaVerbum wrote:

badgerface wrote:

Yep; god gave us all free will. Free will to believe in him and follow his rules, without doubt or question or burn in hell for eternity.

YES! great idea on the Aesop's fables thingy, and i am currently doing that as a writing hobby..with my own freelance.. free verse bible stye.. HA! ha!...

AND i refer to free will as RELATIVE FREE WILL, AS OBVIOUSLY THAT varies as a spectrum.. per environment, innate factors, and other factors potentially unknown, per modern ways of science, at least for NOW..

i think truly smart folks work with MOTHER Nature and Human NATURE.. ONCE they get it figured out.. better.. and better.. as life goes on..

But of course not all folks 'evolve' like this, sadly as may be THAT CASE.. as well...

Some folks have little relative free will.. and for some.. the FORCE OF THAT WILL is Strong..

Just like they say..

IN THE STAR WARS...

fable..

JUST DO THE FORCE.. WHEN IT'S WITH YA..!

NIKE SPACEY STYLE!

THE DARK side is the other option.. PER THE dark force opposing the LIGHT FORCE.. Darth Nike Vader style...

i think i'll use cartoon characters for my Apostles.. or maybe Michael Jordan.. Bruce Lee..

or Katy Perry.. and that list goes on........

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Last edited by aghogday on 10 Feb 2015, 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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