Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Hey kids: Don't be a sucker for socialism

Page 19 of 49 [ 777 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 ... 49  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 29,136
Location: Right over your left shoulder

15 Jun 2017, 3:40 pm

StinkyDog wrote:
Meh, there is also Sweden.


a) Sweden isn't really socialist, they're a mixed economy with significant influence from social democracy.
b) Shh, we can't have examples of left-wing success, we only talk about failures otherwise those crazy commies will start to make other people question if pure capitalism isn't the path to utopia and freedom.

Basically, idealized systems like capitalism or socialism work great in theory, but in the real world economics is far more complicated and everywhere on earth, from North Korea to the US to Sweden has a 'mixed economy' that combined mercantilist, socialist and capitalist ideas. Further, given all the various strains of capitalism and socialism one can't even reasonably describe what a 'pure' form of either would resemble if actually implemented.


_________________
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


Oroborus
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 13 Jun 2017
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Posts: 6
Location: Nothingness

18 Jun 2017, 12:02 am

I have always had an issues with command economies. Often command economies are to idealistic. Command economies such as socialism experience a deadweight loss. There are benefits and cons to each and every economic system. In a socialist economy I would be concerned about innovation, or rather the lack of innovation.

Edit: Disregard Command Economy. A better
term could be controlled.



Last edited by Oroborus on 18 Jun 2017, 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 29,136
Location: Right over your left shoulder

18 Jun 2017, 2:15 am

Oroborus wrote:
I have always had an issues with command economies. Often command economies are to idealistic. Command economies such as socialism experience a deadweight loss. There are benefits and cons to each and every economic system. In a socialist economy I would be concerned about innovation, or rather the lack of innovation.


Socialism doesn't require a command economy though, there's a number of ideologies that are described as 'market socialism'. Leninist socialism often makes the argument that the state owns 'the means of production' and therefore can't not be managing in the people's interest, whereas one could argue that if the means of production are privately owned, but with the entities that own them were democratically self-managed by their employees that would allow for a form of socialism with far less state-intervention than you see in 'social democratic inspired mixed economies' (like Sweden) or in Leninist 'deformed worker's states/state capitalism'.

Further even capitalism has command economies on a smaller scale, every business is effectively a command economy unto it's own.


_________________
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


Oroborus
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 13 Jun 2017
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Posts: 6
Location: Nothingness

18 Jun 2017, 2:34 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Oroborus wrote:
I have always had an issues with command economies. Often command economies are to idealistic. Command economies such as socialism experience a deadweight loss. There are benefits and cons to each and every economic system. In a socialist economy I would be concerned about innovation, or rather the lack of innovation.


Socialism doesn't require a command economy though, there's a number of ideologies that are described as 'market socialism'. Leninist socialism often makes the argument that the state owns 'the means of production' and therefore can't not be managing in the people's interest, whereas one could argue that if the means of production are privately owned, but with the entities that own them were democratically self-managed by their employees that would allow for a form of socialism with far less state-intervention than you see in 'social democratic inspired mixed economies' (like Sweden) or in Leninist 'deformed worker's states/state capitalism'.

Further even capitalism has command economies on a smaller scale, every business is effectively a command economy unto it's own.


You do make a fair point. I should of used better terminology. I presumably was thinking about a specific type of socialism.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 29,136
Location: Right over your left shoulder

18 Jun 2017, 10:33 am

Oroborus wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Oroborus wrote:
I have always had an issues with command economies. Often command economies are to idealistic. Command economies such as socialism experience a deadweight loss. There are benefits and cons to each and every economic system. In a socialist economy I would be concerned about innovation, or rather the lack of innovation.


Socialism doesn't require a command economy though, there's a number of ideologies that are described as 'market socialism'. Leninist socialism often makes the argument that the state owns 'the means of production' and therefore can't not be managing in the people's interest, whereas one could argue that if the means of production are privately owned, but with the entities that own them were democratically self-managed by their employees that would allow for a form of socialism with far less state-intervention than you see in 'social democratic inspired mixed economies' (like Sweden) or in Leninist 'deformed worker's states/state capitalism'.

Further even capitalism has command economies on a smaller scale, every business is effectively a command economy unto it's own.


You do make a fair point. I should of used better terminology. I presumably was thinking about a specific type of socialism.


That's fair, other than the kibbutz movement most socialism as practised has been either the 'social democratic inspired mixed economies' flavour or the Leninist 'deformed worker's states/state capitalism' flavour. Image


_________________
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


friedmacguffins
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,539

18 Jun 2017, 10:48 am

Darmok wrote:
Why is Venezuela starving? It's the socialism, stupid.

(sarc) But, it's not real socialism. Let's try it, again.



nineinchnailsfan93
Raven
Raven

Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 108

18 Jun 2017, 10:49 am

My stance on socialism is that it can work if it's put into use properly. If the bare necessity is provided to those who need it like shelter, food, power and public transportation then I'm all for it. But luxurious things is what people have to earn such as a new car, a bigger house, xbox, or anything that people don't need but have a desire to obtain.



friedmacguffins
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,539

18 Jun 2017, 12:20 pm

It's never the "real" one.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_LKH0HUMAARDVR.jpg

I think I would modify this relationship, slightly, to portray corporate welfare and social welfare as a viscous circle, or shell, in which the forever-failing, social contract shields the banking interest from scrutiny. Whose fault is it.

Neither crony capital nor the poorer kind of beggar are living on terms of their own choosing. They are not culpable, except for being useful idiots.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

19 Jun 2017, 8:41 pm

Darmok wrote:
Very good column in USA Today for any young folks (especially) who haven't yet been completely brainwashed by the SJWs of the Junior Socialist League:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /32613393/

"It is a common misconception that socialism is about helping poor people. Actually, what socialism does is create poor people, and keep them poor. And that’s not by accident."


'If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain'...
Always loved that quote...<chuckle>
Someone should tell it to the Brits...



Oroborus
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 13 Jun 2017
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Posts: 6
Location: Nothingness

19 Jun 2017, 10:18 pm

Pepe wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Very good column in USA Today for any young folks (especially) who haven't yet been completely brainwashed by the SJWs of the Junior Socialist League:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /32613393/

"It is a common misconception that socialism is about helping poor people. Actually, what socialism does is create poor people, and keep them poor. And that’s not by accident."


'If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain'...
Always loved that quote...<chuckle>
Someone should tell it to the Brits...


What I personally love about said quote is how mentions political conformity. Political conformity is somewhat of a pain. If you disect the quote you come to the understanding of individuality, especially in terms of politics.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 29,136
Location: Right over your left shoulder

21 Jun 2017, 4:55 pm

Pepe wrote:
'If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain'...
Always loved that quote...<chuckle>
Someone should tell it to the Brits...


Funny quote, funnier still when you consider how often it's misquoted. An older, more correct version is:

He who is not a républicain at twenty compels one to doubt the generosity of his heart; but he who, after thirty, persists, compels one to doubt the soundness of his mind.”

It's of French origin, possibly from or regarding Edmund Burke.

As attributed to Victor Hugo:

“If a man is not a republican at twenty, it is because he has no heart, and if he is one at forty, it is because he has no brains.”


_________________
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


friedmacguffins
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,539

21 Jun 2017, 4:59 pm

StinkyDog wrote:
Meh, there is also Sweden.

funeralxempire wrote:
Sweden isn't really socialist, they're a mixed economy with significant influence from social democracy.


Mixed, as in "Angry Foreigner" and "Sweden, yes."



Dave_T
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 19 Nov 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 94
Location: UK

21 Jun 2017, 5:42 pm

Pepe wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Very good column in USA Today for any young folks (especially) who haven't yet been completely brainwashed by the SJWs of the Junior Socialist League:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /32613393/

"It is a common misconception that socialism is about helping poor people. Actually, what socialism does is create poor people, and keep them poor. And that’s not by accident."


'If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain'...
Always loved that quote...<chuckle>
Someone should tell it to the Brits...

Corbyn scares me. he bribed the students to follow his crazy plans.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status ... lang=en-gb


_________________
Dyslexia
Bipolar
Most likely Aspie.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 144 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 66 of 200


StinkyDog
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2017
Age: 74
Gender: Female
Posts: 475
Location: In Your Mind

24 Jun 2017, 2:00 pm

Image



Darmok
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,030
Location: New England

12 Jul 2017, 8:40 pm

Food shopping in Venezuela under late-stage socialism: Highway mob forces sugar truck off the road with a Molotov cocktail, ransacks truck, steals all the sugar.


_________________
 
There Are Four Lights!


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

12 Jul 2017, 11:53 pm

Dave_T wrote:
Corbyn scares me. he bribed the students to follow his crazy plans.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status ... lang=en-gb


What scares me is the idea of children having the vote...
Don't quote me but I think it was suggested over here that 16 years olds should have the right... 8O
You'd have a PS4 in every room in every household but the country would be broke...

They made a movie decades ago about the under 30s gaining political power...legislating putting LSD in the water supply(?)...
These days it would be ecstasy...
And don't talk about Logan's Run where they terminated anyone hitting 30... :skull:
Fright night move over... :mrgreen: