Eternal recurrence and the morality of fierce competition

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Sand
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25 Jul 2009, 11:25 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Tollorin wrote:

No, as the stars lit themselfs by nuclear reactions. The heat for starting this reactions come from their birth. The stars births when vast hydrogen clouds conglomerates under his gravity, heating itsel in the process to maintain entropy.

Right, but there is a small (mass/energy)/volume ratio, meaning that this is unlikely to happen.

Quote:

About one hydrogen atom by litre by billion of years (I got that from a book)

Let's not forget the "coolest" consequence of a infinite universe. The universe being infinite, everything, not matter how small the odds, will come true in a infinite number of times and places. Which mean Somewhere in space, this may all be happening right now

(If the laws of the universe authorise that, of course :lol:

)

I am not sure where the number came from, however, I will admit that my assumption was a bit of a guess as I assumed that a significant amount of mass and energy were dissipating off to the void due to solar reactions and things like that. But yeah, I suppose in the very very long run, we can have a big crunch.

The recent discovery of dark forces accelerating the expansion of the universe makes the crunch unlikely.

Awesomelyglorious
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25 Jul 2009, 11:52 pm

Sand wrote:

The recent discovery of dark forces accelerating the expansion of the universe makes the crunch unlikely.

Are dark forces directly related to mass? Because if mass constantly increases, then a crunching will occur. The issue in this case being where the crunching may occur, in an infinite universe, I would imagine that this will result in multiple local crunchings.

Sand
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26 Jul 2009, 12:12 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Sand wrote:

The recent discovery of dark forces accelerating the expansion of the universe makes the crunch unlikely.

Since you already have dismissed an infinite universe I am puzzled as to why you bring it up again. Local crunches are what formed the galaxies and that is an interim occurrence.

skafather84
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26 Jul 2009, 1:01 am

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Tollorin wrote:

The entropy don't necessery mean the heat-death of the universe. The universe expansion "dilute" the entropy, it's a little like trying to fill up of water a bucket who continue to get bigger and bigger.

This might clarify your thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

That relies on the universe being finite.

And your delight in an infinite universe does not create it. The admission on your part of the big bang creation of the universe which is documented in several ways definitely implies a limited universe since an infinite universe cannot have a beginning.

Big bang doesn't necessitate a singular start point. In a three dimensional sense: yes; but not much more than that. We're beings that exists in more than 3 dimensions.

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Sand
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26 Jul 2009, 1:07 am

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Tollorin wrote:

This might clarify your thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

That relies on the universe being finite.

Big bang doesn't necessitate a singular start point. In a three dimensional sense: yes; but not much more than that. We're beings that exists in more than 3 dimensions.

Perhaps you exist in four dimensions like everybody else (although I have doubts since your opinions appear to originate in comic strips). Anything beyond that is still quite speculative.

skafather84
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26 Jul 2009, 1:14 am

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Tollorin wrote:

This might clarify your thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

That relies on the universe being finite.

Big bang doesn't necessitate a singular start point. In a three dimensional sense: yes; but not much more than that. We're beings that exists in more than 3 dimensions.

Perhaps you exist in four dimensions like everybody else (although I have doubts since your opinions appear to originate in comic strips). Anything beyond that is still quite speculative.

So you have nothing to add there other than some empty jabs? Come on, I know you're better than that. You used to be the champ. Was always a fan of your stuff on the board. You can do better. Hit me with some extra-dimensional physics. Shroedinger's cat is both alive and dead right now...kill the little thing off. :-p

Sand
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26 Jul 2009, 1:19 am

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Tollorin wrote:

This might clarify your thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

That relies on the universe being finite.

Big bang doesn't necessitate a singular start point. In a three dimensional sense: yes; but not much more than that. We're beings that exists in more than 3 dimensions.

Goodness gracious! Me a champ? I really am not fond of baloney. If you claim to be three dimensional, so be it. Hopefully, one of them is time. You can choose the other two yourself.

Perhaps you exist in four dimensions like everybody else (although I have doubts since your opinions appear to originate in comic strips). Anything beyond that is still quite speculative.

skafather84
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26 Jul 2009, 1:22 am

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Tollorin wrote:

This might clarify your thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

That relies on the universe being finite.

Big bang doesn't necessitate a singular start point. In a three dimensional sense: yes; but not much more than that. We're beings that exists in more than 3 dimensions.

Perhaps you exist in four dimensions like everybody else (although I have doubts since your opinions appear to originate in comic strips). Anything beyond that is still quite speculative.

Goodness gracious! Me a champ? I really am not fond of baloney. If you claim to be three dimensional, so be it. Hopefully, one of them is time. You can choose the other two yourself.

Well, personally, I've shifted toward idealizing 5 philosophical dimensions. 4th being time and the 5th being probability. Not meant to be taken literally but as a literal device of understanding how reality works.

(and if you want the cliff note philosophy of the first three: 1 - the self/god; 2 - duality; 3 - irrationality)

ruveyn
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26 Jul 2009, 6:44 am

twoshots wrote:

I'll bite: Why can't an infinite universe have a beginning?

It can if it came into existence from nothing. This way a universe that is spatially infinite can exist with a finite past.

ruveyn

Sand
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26 Jul 2009, 7:55 am

ruveyn wrote:

twoshots wrote:

I'll bite: Why can't an infinite universe have a beginning?

It can if it came into existence from nothing. This way a universe that is spatially infinite can exist with a finite past.

ruveyn

Since it has been determined that it is expanding, how can an infinite universe expand?

skafather84
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26 Jul 2009, 12:08 pm

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

twoshots wrote:

I'll bite: Why can't an infinite universe have a beginning?

It can if it came into existence from nothing. This way a universe that is spatially infinite can exist with a finite past.

ruveyn

Since it has been determined that it is expanding, how can an infinite universe expand?

The problem with the whole of the universe is that it is extremely hard to conceptualize the whole of it because we're within it. To conceptualize it in a whole sense, we would need to have a fourth dimensional perspective on it. From a 4th dimensional perspective, the universe is finite. From a 3 dimensional perspective, the universe is infinite and, most likely, cyclical on a grand scale larger than we can perceive.

Sand
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26 Jul 2009, 12:22 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

twoshots wrote:

I'll bite: Why can't an infinite universe have a beginning?

It can if it came into existence from nothing. This way a universe that is spatially infinite can exist with a finite past.

ruveyn

Since it has been determined that it is expanding, how can an infinite universe expand?

There are three spacial dimensions and the fourth dimension is time. And even time, according to Stephen Hawking is not infinite.

skafather84
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26 Jul 2009, 12:37 pm

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

twoshots wrote:

I'll bite: Why can't an infinite universe have a beginning?

It can if it came into existence from nothing. This way a universe that is spatially infinite can exist with a finite past.

ruveyn

Since it has been determined that it is expanding, how can an infinite universe expand?

There are three spacial dimensions and the fourth dimension is time. And even time, according to Stephen Hawking is not infinite.

That's disingenuous to say three spacial dimensions because that implies that we can interact directly with two dimensions. We can certainly master the mathematics of it (the luxury of looking "down" from three dimensions) and can draw relatively flat looking pictures but it's not a true two dimensions...you know that.

Sand
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26 Jul 2009, 12:53 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

twoshots wrote:

I'll bite: Why can't an infinite universe have a beginning?

It can if it came into existence from nothing. This way a universe that is spatially infinite can exist with a finite past.

ruveyn

Since it has been determined that it is expanding, how can an infinite universe expand?

There are three spacial dimensions and the fourth dimension is time. And even time, according to Stephen Hawking is not infinite.

Acquaint yourself as to what "dimension" means. Beginning from an origin you need one dimension or measurement to locate a point in a one dimensional space, two measurements to locate a point in two dimensional space, three dimensions to locate a point in three dimensional space and four dimensions to locate a point in four dimensional space. That's the whole thing.

ruveyn
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26 Jul 2009, 1:37 pm

Sand wrote:

Since it has been determined that it is expanding, how can an infinite universe expand?

Expand from a plane to three dimensions. Infinite to infinite.

ruveyn

skafather84
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26 Jul 2009, 1:39 pm

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

twoshots wrote:

I'll bite: Why can't an infinite universe have a beginning?

It can if it came into existence from nothing. This way a universe that is spatially infinite can exist with a finite past.

ruveyn

Since it has been determined that it is expanding, how can an infinite universe expand?

There are three spacial dimensions and the fourth dimension is time. And even time, according to Stephen Hawking is not infinite.

I'm fully aware of the homogeneous nature of it all. I'm saying perceived reality. A perceived reality from a two dimensional perspective would be entirely different than from a three dimensional perspective as would be entirely different from a truly four dimensional perspective.

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