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Fetal Rights & Forced Medical Treatment: Your Opinion?

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DentArthurDent
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04 Mar 2010, 10:58 pm

Again I think we are missing the original question, at what point does a foetus get rights. I as you will all be aware am very pro abortion, but there does come a point in the gestational life of a foetus where it will be born whether preterm or not. I am wondering, if at this stage, when life independent of the mother is a virtual given, should the foetus get rights over the mothers wishes.


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leejosepho
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05 Mar 2010, 7:04 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
... there does come a point in the gestational life of a foetus where it will be born whether preterm or not. I am wondering, if at this stage, when life independent of the mother is a virtual given, should the foetus get rights over the mothers wishes.


How would one's likelihood of survival outside the womb have any effect on an answer to the question at hand?

Your best efforts to defend murder in the womb will never hold water in the mind of any clear thinker.


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05 Mar 2010, 7:15 am

leejosepho wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
... there does come a point in the gestational life of a foetus where it will be born whether preterm or not. I am wondering, if at this stage, when life independent of the mother is a virtual given, should the foetus get rights over the mothers wishes.


How would one's likelihood of survival outside the womb have any effect on an answer to the question at hand?

Your best efforts to defend murder in the womb will never hold water in the mind of any clear thinker.

It's not murder if it's a parasite incapable of independant life and is a burden on it's host. Unless you consider removing moss from a tree to be murder aswell. Any clear thinker can see that a being incapable of thought or independant life should not be granted the same rights as a human.

Also, I'm planning to take your liver. It doesn't matter if you protest because you do not own the contents of your body, apparently.



Sand
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05 Mar 2010, 7:17 am

leejosepho wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
... there does come a point in the gestational life of a foetus where it will be born whether preterm or not. I am wondering, if at this stage, when life independent of the mother is a virtual given, should the foetus get rights over the mothers wishes.


How would one's likelihood of survival outside the womb have any effect on an answer to the question at hand?

Your best efforts to defend murder in the womb will never hold water in the mind of any clear thinker.


And if the standard is merely the fetus in the womb, when does it become murder? Right after the egg and the sperm have joined or before that? And how much before? When a man sees a woman he would like to sleep with and she rejects him is that murder? Is it murder to take a morning after pill? Can one remove a blastula without committing murder? When?



leejosepho
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05 Mar 2010, 4:31 pm

Lecks wrote:
It's not murder if it's a parasite incapable of independant life and is a burden on it's host ...


Such as in the cases of many autistic people?

I cannot imagine anyone making such a foolish and insulting argument here on WP.


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PLA
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05 Mar 2010, 4:55 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Lecks wrote:
It's not murder if it's a parasite incapable of independant life and is a burden on it's host ...


Such as in the cases of many autistic people?

I cannot imagine anyone making such a foolish and insulting argument here on WP.

Oh, can I play, too?

OK, here goes: So you're saying that autistic people might as well not even have a central nervous system? You are calling them braindead, perhaps? Oh, I cannot imagine, I cannot imagine!

Sorry. Sleepy. :)


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Lecks
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05 Mar 2010, 5:00 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Lecks wrote:
It's not murder if it's a parasite incapable of independant life and is a burden on it's host ...


Such as in the cases of many autistic people?

You're comparing autistics to parasitic life forms? Seriously?

Quote:
I cannot imagine anyone making such a foolish and insulting argument here on WP.



leejosepho
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06 Mar 2010, 12:25 am

Lecks wrote:
You're comparing autistics to parasitic life forms? Seriously?


No, not in even the slightest way. I am only attempting to address a combination of intellectual honesty and principle.

If we remove the subjective word "parasite", here is the objective principle that has been expressed:

"It's not murder if it's ... incapable of independant life and is a burden on it's host ..."

Now tell me the difference between a close friend of mine who cannot move any part of her body or even breathe on her own and a child yet in the womb. Neither is capable of independent life and each is a burden on someone ...


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Sand
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06 Mar 2010, 12:55 am

leejosepho wrote:
Lecks wrote:
You're comparing autistics to parasitic life forms? Seriously?


No, not in even the slightest way. I am only attempting to address a combination of intellectual honesty and principle.

If we remove the subjective word "parasite", here is the objective principle that has been expressed:

"It's not murder if it's ... incapable of independant life and is a burden on it's host ..."

Now tell me the difference between a close friend of mine who cannot move any part of her body or even breathe on her own and a child yet in the womb. Neither is capable of independent life and each is a burden on someone ...


My son was a quadriplegic on a breathing machine for 32 years before he died but to compare his huge intelligence and dynamic activity through a computer to a few cells mechanically reproducing in a womb is a frightful insult and indicates a complete misunderstanding of what it means to be a viable intelligent human being.



leejosepho
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06 Mar 2010, 8:48 am

Sand wrote:
My son was a quadriplegic on a breathing machine for 32 years before he died but to compare his huge intelligence and dynamic activity through a computer to a few cells mechanically reproducing in a womb is a frightful insult and indicates a complete misunderstanding of what it means to be a viable intelligent human being.


Then you should not have made such a comparison.


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Sand
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06 Mar 2010, 9:04 am

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
My son was a quadriplegic on a breathing machine for 32 years before he died but to compare his huge intelligence and dynamic activity through a computer to a few cells mechanically reproducing in a womb is a frightful insult and indicates a complete misunderstanding of what it means to be a viable intelligent human being.


Then you should not have made such a comparison.


I didn't. You did.



leejosepho
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06 Mar 2010, 9:24 am

Sand wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
My son was a quadriplegic on a breathing machine for 32 years before he died but to compare his huge intelligence and dynamic activity through a computer to a few cells mechanically reproducing in a womb is a frightful insult and indicates a complete misunderstanding of what it means to be a viable intelligent human being.


Then you should not have made such a comparison.


I didn't. You did.


No, I did not, and I see no difference. It was you or someone else here who called the unborn child a parasite.

Question: From where do the so-called "parasite's" expectations of its "host" (mother) come?


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Sand
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06 Mar 2010, 9:32 am

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
My son was a quadriplegic on a breathing machine for 32 years before he died but to compare his huge intelligence and dynamic activity through a computer to a few cells mechanically reproducing in a womb is a frightful insult and indicates a complete misunderstanding of what it means to be a viable intelligent human being.


Then you should not have made such a comparison.


I didn't. You did.


No, I did not, and I see no difference. It was you or someone else here who called the unborn child a parasite.

Question: From where do the so-called "parasite's" expectations of its "host" (mother) come?


Your precise words:"Now tell me the difference between a close friend of mine who cannot move any part of her body or even breathe on her own and a child yet in the womb. Neither is capable of independent life and each is a burden on someone "
A "child in the womb" can be a fertilized egg, a few cells mechanically multiplying or any stage of development. Until you specify exactly when a developing fetus is not a comparison to a fully developed conscious quadriplegic human my accusation stands and your vague theoretical statements are not acceptable.



leejosepho
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06 Mar 2010, 9:48 am

Sand wrote:
Your precise words: "Now tell me the difference between a close friend of mine who cannot move any part of her body or even breathe on her own and a child yet in the womb. Neither is capable of independent life and each is a burden on someone."


Yes, I see no difference.

Question: From where do the so-called "parasite's" expectations of its "host" (mother) come?


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Sand
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06 Mar 2010, 9:51 am

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
Your precise words: "Now tell me the difference between a close friend of mine who cannot move any part of her body or even breathe on her own and a child yet in the womb. Neither is capable of independent life and each is a burden on someone."


Yes, I see no difference.

Question: From where do the so-called "parasite's" expectations of its "host" (mother) come?


Then I must say your judgment is monstrously crippled.



leejosepho
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06 Mar 2010, 10:06 am

Sand wrote:
Then I must say your judgment is monstrously crippled.


No, the one who calls the unborn child a mere parasite is the monster!

Question: From where do the so-called "parasite's" expectations of its "host" (mother) come?


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