New Arizona Law called "fundamentally racist."

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I disagree. Non-citizens have no fundamental right to be in the country.
The amount of legal immigration needs to be increased and people need to be allowed in the country legally with full protection from exploitation.

It strickes me that this law is wrongheaded on at least two inportant grounds:

1) Constitutionality. Immigration and Naturalization is a power reserved to the federal government. The centerpiece of this legislation, the authority to verify immigration status, appears to be an attempt to arrogate a federal power to state authorities.

2) Economics. Although there are no clear studies, there is fairly strong evidence that undocumented workers and their families contribute as much to government fiscal accounts as they consume in services. Because undocumented workers are less likely to present themselves to government to services, they tend to consume fewer public services than comparable documented migrants, or US citizens and permanent residents. Because of the practice of deductions at source, a significant number of migrant workers pay income taxes, and virtually all pay transaction taxes (in states where those exist).

Major urban centres in the United States are enormously dependent upon undocument labour. Undocumented labour is a significant driver in the retail sector, as well as construction, agriculture and some areas of manufacturing. This serves to put a less significant pressure on capital, and stands as an important driver to productivity.

The National Reserach Council's 1997 study, The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration is one of the most comprehensive economic studies of migration into the United States examining not only the direct fiscal impact of migration, but also the indirect impact through growth in the economy and new sectors.

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=5779

The City of Phoenix, among dozens of other large US cities, has enacted bylaws restricting police from doing precisely what the Arizona law proposes. Cities clearly understand that their economic well being is dependent upon economic growth, which woudl be impeded by the loss of a significant, economically productive population.

I don't even think race should be the issue. Illegals have no "right" to be here and should be sent back when possible. What needs to happen is for the government to crack down on the employers who hire illegals and to secure our borders even if that means militarizing the borders so they can't get here in the first place. We have troops in 700+ overseas military bases in a 130 countries around the world, it should not be an issue to do this. I always hated the whole "they do the work we don't want to do" argument too especially now in the age of near 20% real unemployment. The US should tell Mexico to do their part now or we'll cut off all aid to them. Their whole government is corrupt, why are we sending them so much money? Arizona made this law because the federal government isn't doing it's job in stopping in illegal immigration.

The problem with this law is constitutional. It violates the 4th amendment.

You should fence-off a mile-wide strip on the border and shoot on sight anybody found crossing it. A pity we can't do that here in the UK.

Illegals who make up a small part of the population, 15,000,000, less than 5%, are making up up to a third of all felony convictions. The same people are also found to have police records in Mexico, where they fled to avoid arrest.

So faced with going to a Mexican jail for murder, or the US, most head for the border.

These are not people who would ever qualify for legal immigration.

La Lina in Mexico, and La Familia in US prisons, are spreading colonies in every County in the US, and into Canada, for a wholesale drug network, and as they are not legal, do not speak the language, are using the Spanish speaking for the retail work, under threat of death.

Due to language, they have to. A lot of the crime is centered on the illegal community, who do not report their children being pressed into drug dealing.

We do have legal immigration from Mexico, and those people are the ones who are being targeted by crime families from Mexico. They have papers, did it right, and deserve the full protection of the law.

I have lived in New Mexico, the folks who have been there since the 1500s may speak Spaniah, were once Mexicans, but have no love for what is coming over the border now. Legal immigrants are having wages reduced, their children targeted for durg sales, enforced by murder, and they did hope for something better.

Demanding ID, and running a Mexican Warrents check, is a reasonable action.

Demand ID (which will create its own issues), but it must be done without regard to race - doing it with a bias towards Hispanic and Native individuals is discriminatory. And living in a nation that demands to see one's "papers" is an uncomfortable corollary to the beginning of some of the worst and most destructive regimes in history. Second, it is the exportation of jobs while becoming increasingly reliant on the importation of goofs that has created this situation. When there was not direct competition for jobs, the situation was not considered a pressing issue - now that those are the only jobs left, it is now cause celebre.


M.

Why a fence? We have what was once described as a very good anti-tank obstacle.. the channel. The part we lack is effective control of points of entry.

I always though Nationalism would be a disease uncommon in those of us on the spectrum. It's simply not logical.

I think this is interesting.

They say that there are as many as 600,000 illegals in the state costing unknown billions of dollars a year.

Say the new law actually chases them out. Will they go back to Mexico or will they pour into Texas and California?

Imagine that hundreds of thousands of people suddenly flood into Los Angeles. The state is already bankrupt. When hundreds of thousands of new people turn up then they might also pass laws against them....

Which would cause them to all move to another state which would then pass laws to protect themselves.

Yes, this is going to be interesting.

redwulf25_ci wrote:

Please enlighten us by letting us know just what is wrong with nationalism.

Well maku and others are uninformed.

Maku
"doing it with a bias towards Hispanic and Native individuals is discriminatory. And living in a nation that demands to see one's "papers" is an uncomfortable corollary to the beginning of some of the worst and most destructive regimes in history"

Race profiling is illegal: accent, dress, no english, etc etc are all legal ways to spot a foreigner in USA. And guess what, an officer has
every right to check a suspected illegal foreigner in USA. Police also have a right to stop and hold ANYONE if they suspect a crime.
The crime in this case being STANDING in USA.

1: US citizens in AZ only need to carry a drivers licence or AZ ID IF they have poor english or are a recient immigrant.
So the "papers please" lies from the criminal lovers is fear mongering. US citizens are not, and will not, be effected by this.

2: Every other country in the world requires foreigners to carry passport/visa at all times and present upon demand. I have mounds of foreign paperwork and stamps in my worn passport. They also spot foreigners just like USA will.

here is Mexicos immigration law. Having spent years there on and off. THis sums it up.
http://mysorebutt.com/immigration-law.php
And they enforce it too. Why cant USA have laws like that and enforce it?


And Maku
I invite you to go to Mexico or any other country and work at a non-specalized job. You will thrown in jail and deported.
90% of countrys ban ALL foreigners from working period. A few allow temp or specalized people in.
When I was in Mexico they nailed a place for having foreign prostitutes there. (Prost. is legal in Mx) So they deported
all of them.

As for Visagrunt
1: The law is constitutional. It is a copy of federal law with minor additions. The immigration and naturalization act.
2: Illegals cost billions in USA- fill the jails - depress wages- dont pay taxes - dont pay licence fees - leach off US hospitals - this list is endless
Here is one web site.
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/

When you have your job stolen by a foreigner, desciminated because you are not a foreigner, and are denyed healthcare while illegal foreigners can see a Dr. In MY OWN F'ing country! They get a safety net and I get NOTHING!
All sympothy for these scum ends. WA state spends $165 million per year for health care for illegal foreigners. I get nothing. No disablity, 1.5 years to get some pain releif for my back, living every day with severe back pain.

I AS A DISABLED US CITIZEN GET NOTHING.
I have no income
Get no disability
and yet WA state DSHS spends millions of the tax dollars I paid over my working years, and gives it to illegal foreigners.

And you want me to feel sorry for them? LMAO NEVER going to happen.

things are getting pretty ugly.

Since when do you need to carry ID on you at all times? Since when do police have a right to stop you and demand your ID/papers/whatever? That strikes me as patently unconstitutional since it turns reasonable suspicion on its head - instead of being presumed innocent, you're now presumed guilty unless you can exonerate yourself. It is different in automobiles since driving is a state-granted privilege and the state can control who can drive, it is also different in airplanes because of the unique safety risks involved. I agree, if you're illegal you should be sent back - now, how do we determine who's illegal? Under this law, being brown-skinned is enough to get searched in a state where there is a very large proportion of perfectly LEGAL Hispanic citizens and residents - though no doubt there are plenty who want them sent back too for not being "real Americans."

Not to mention that this bill does NOTHING to address the economic reasons for illegal immigration - the only way you're going to eliminate illegal immigration is if they no longer have an incentive to come here illegally. Make it so that for every illegal immigrant found in a workplace, an employer has to pay a very large fine, and put your resources into monitoring employers and I guarantee you'll see illegal immigration drop dramatically.

Sorry, but disagreement doesn't mean uninformed... though based on that response, I can infer some information about your political leanings. Yes, it is impossible for a foreigner to work or own property in Mexico; so do something appropriate instead of retaliatory. As stated, this law shares too much in common with other nationalistic movements which have ultimately disregarded human rights than bearing any benefit in my opinion. Your opinion may differ, but you can keep your insults to yourself.


M.

Hmmm... Make something that is a Federal Crime a State Crime as well... I am no more or less in danger of abusive policing. It's not like a bad cop needs another law to be bad. No slippery slope here, friend. Your point is, well, pointless.

You presume much. I did not claim to be a nationalist, just pointed out the wrong ist was being used.

I support the law in AZ because it does not overreach, it re-affirms a Federal crime as a State crime. It brings an issue to light, our Federal laws on immigration are largely unenforced and ignored. AZ has done its part to say those laws should be enforced. Now some debate can begin. Criticism of AZ law is a criticism of Federal law. So let's reform and revise things and come up with a sensible policy and actually enforce it. And as a side note, a sensible policy does not include amnesty or tolerating ILLEGAL entry to the country. A compassionate policy may, but a logical, sensible, and fair policy should not.