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Sand
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21 Jul 2010, 1:52 am

LKL wrote:
So the 'fall' also reduced the human appendix from a functional fermentation chamber to an open-ended, worm-sized sack that occasionally causes death, as well? Oh, irony: we are compelled by the fall to consume fruit and vegetables, but at the same time lost the ability to gain nutrients from the fiber therin.


Not that I subscribe to the obvious idiocies of Intelligent Design but the appendix has recently been discovered to hold a reserve supply of the vital digestive micro-organisms that are frequently destroyed in the body's overcoming dangerous infections and through the use of antibiotics. Thus recovery is aided by resupplying the digestive system after a cure.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Jul 2010, 1:53 am

greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Referring to armpits? That's not a smell we produce, but a smell a bacteria produces. Showering occasionally helps.

Why an intelligent designer would "design" and create bacteria, which purpose could they possibly have along with the rest of microorganisms in relation to the original pre-fall paradise?


The bacteria which dwells upon the armpit is not harmful, but it does serve a purpose as an indicator of the level of an individual's cleanliness, or rather, the lack thereof.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Jul 2010, 1:56 am

Sand wrote:
LKL wrote:
So the 'fall' also reduced the human appendix from a functional fermentation chamber to an open-ended, worm-sized sack that occasionally causes death, as well? Oh, irony: we are compelled by the fall to consume fruit and vegetables, but at the same time lost the ability to gain nutrients from the fiber therin.


Not that I subscribe to the obvious idiocies of Intelligent Design but the appendix has recently been discovered to hold a reserve supply of the vital digestive micro-organisms that are frequently destroyed in the body's overcoming dangerous infections and through the use of antibiotics. Thus recovery is aided by resupplying the digestive system after a cure.


And the appendix only becomes dangerous if a pathological strain of E. coli find it's way to the appendix.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Jul 2010, 1:57 am

greenblue wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I'm not sure how (or if) any creationists deal with the issue of the human body plan being dramatically re-done after the six literal days of creation were already over.

Most likely, a supernatural event (the curse of humanity) caused by the first sin.


Link?



LKL
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21 Jul 2010, 3:55 am

Sand, I have heard that hypothesis, but I have not seen any evidence to support it (ie, I have never seen evidence that those with appendices have better outcomes post antibiotics than those without appendices). In addition, antibiotics are too new of an invention to be a factor in the evolution of appendices.

'keet, your statement is false. Appendices rupture and burst from many types of bacteria; the common factor is a small piece of stool plugging the opening, not the species of bacterium.



Sand
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21 Jul 2010, 4:29 am

LKL wrote:
Sand, I have heard that hypothesis, but I have not seen any evidence to support it (ie, I have never seen evidence that those with appendices have better outcomes post antibiotics than those without appendices). In addition, antibiotics are too new of an invention to be a factor in the evolution of appendices.

'keet, your statement is false. Appendices rupture and burst from many types of bacteria; the common factor is a small piece of stool plugging the opening, not the species of bacterium.


This is one of many sites indicating the use of the appendix. http://www.rebecca4fitness.com/wordpress/?p=188

Re-population of the digestive system after illness is necessary under several circumstances occurring naturally even before antibiotics. You have no data indicating the time lapse necessary for a favorable mutation to take place. Viruses are notorious for mutating from one season to the next.



ruveyn
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21 Jul 2010, 7:10 am

Forget the appendix. What about the lumbar region of the human spine. Clear proof that the Intelligent Designer is as dumb as sh*t.

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21 Jul 2010, 9:58 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Why is human smell unpleasant for humans? I mean, really?


"god" want us always at war and the unpleasantness in the smell of other humans is a reminder that we're supposed to be killing each other.


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Sand
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21 Jul 2010, 10:49 am

skafather84 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Why is human smell unpleasant for humans? I mean, really?


"god" want us always at war and the unpleasantness in the smell of other humans is a reminder that we're supposed to be killing each other.


If people smelled so good to each other they would spend all their time smelling each other and we'd all starve to death. It's a survival characteristic.



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21 Jul 2010, 2:24 pm

Teeth are rubbish. Sharks teeth are better. I want those instead.


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21 Jul 2010, 3:32 pm

I hardly ever post in PPR, but I thought I would drop in because I saw headaches mentioned. I have chronic headaches--I've had them nearly every day for a year once (I keep a 'headache' journal). It's a congenital brain malformation.

I see everyone talking about intelligent design...'this is a pretty stupid design for an intelligent designer, yada yada". So assuming the world was brought about by a means other than intelligent design and we were all made to be the way we are now by the result of billions of years of evolution, does that make our unsatisfactory bodies excuseable?


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21 Jul 2010, 3:34 pm

astaut wrote:
I see everyone talking about intelligent design...'this is a pretty stupid design for an intelligent designer, yada yada". So assuming the world was brought about by a means other than intelligent design and we were all made to be the way we are now by the result of billions of years of evolution, does that make our unsatisfactory bodies excuseable?

Well.... arguably yes. Our bodies are not made by a designer that is close to ideal, and some of the problems can be blamed on ad hoc and klugey solutions.



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21 Jul 2010, 4:02 pm

astaut wrote:
I see everyone talking about intelligent design...'this is a pretty stupid design for an intelligent designer, yada yada". So assuming the world was brought about by a means other than intelligent design and we were all made to be the way we are now by the result of billions of years of evolution, does that make our unsatisfactory bodies excuseable?

Yes, yes it does. Evolution makes do with what it has.


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21 Jul 2010, 4:21 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Teeth are rubbish. Sharks teeth are better. I want those instead.


Constantly loosing and reforming them? Now there's something that would be K'vetched about.


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"I bite into a potato and I lose a few teeth!! ! Waa! Waa! Waa! It hurts so much! I say God wouldn't do this, so therefore God doesn't exist! Waa! Waa! Waa!"



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21 Jul 2010, 6:21 pm

Sand wrote:
This is one of many sites indicating the use of the appendix. http://www.rebecca4fitness.com/wordpress/?p=188

Re-population of the digestive system after illness is necessary under several circumstances occurring naturally even before antibiotics. You have no data indicating the time lapse necessary for a favorable mutation to take place. Viruses are notorious for mutating from one season to the next.


Sand, there are sites all over the internet claiming functions for the appendix, just like there are sites all over the internet claiming that autism is caused by vaccines. People want the appendix to have a function, for some reason. Lots of these sites push the fact that the appendix has immune tissue - GALT (gut associated lymphoid tissue) - without bothering to mention that the rest of the gut also has GALT. The whole 'bacterial reservoir' idea is made dubious by the fact that we repopulate our guts with bacteria every single time we eat (no, it's not all killed in the stomach). Babies, for instance, are born with sterile guts - appendix included - and their guts are populated starting with the skin bacteria on their mother's breasts. As far as the hygiene hypothesis goes, I have yet to see any data that people with appendices have better survival than people without appendices in 3rd world countries without adequate plumbing.

As far as the time lapse needed for mutations in human populations, I do in fact have data; I just haven't presented it here yet. Viruses mutate from one season to the next because they can go through hundreds or even thousands of populations within a single host, much less from host to host in a single season; humans have a population time that is in the decades, even in areas where they marry off in their teens.

digestive enzyme evolution in humans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/11/science/11evolve.html

gross anatomical digestive evolution in lizards, which have a generation time of a few years or less:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... d.php#more



Sand
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21 Jul 2010, 6:43 pm

LKL wrote:
Sand wrote:
This is one of many sites indicating the use of the appendix. http://www.rebecca4fitness.com/wordpress/?p=188

Re-population of the digestive system after illness is necessary under several circumstances occurring naturally even before antibiotics. You have no data indicating the time lapse necessary for a favorable mutation to take place. Viruses are notorious for mutating from one season to the next.


Sand, there are sites all over the internet claiming functions for the appendix, just like there are sites all over the internet claiming that autism is caused by vaccines. People want the appendix to have a function, for some reason. Lots of these sites push the fact that the appendix has immune tissue - GALT (gut associated lymphoid tissue) - without bothering to mention that the rest of the gut also has GALT. The whole 'bacterial reservoir' idea is made dubious by the fact that we repopulate our guts with bacteria every single time we eat (no, it's not all killed in the stomach). Babies, for instance, are born with sterile guts - appendix included - and their guts are populated starting with the skin bacteria on their mother's breasts. As far as the hygiene hypothesis goes, I have yet to see any data that people with appendices have better survival than people without appendices in 3rd world countries without adequate plumbing.

As far as the time lapse needed for mutations in human populations, I do in fact have data; I just haven't presented it here yet. Viruses mutate from one season to the next because they can go through hundreds or even thousands of populations within a single host, much less from host to host in a single season; humans have a population time that is in the decades, even in areas where they marry off in their teens.

digestive enzyme evolution in humans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/11/science/11evolve.html

gross anatomical digestive evolution in lizards, which have a generation time of a few years or less:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... d.php#more


What you are proposing is that I believe you instead of these other sites which seem to me quite reasonable. Sorry.