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autisticon
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03 May 2006, 11:03 am

I wont sit here and bash religion, I disagree with it in many ways. But putting them down wont get me anywhere. But here are my thoughts...

For me my decison to abandon my roman catholic heritage was not necessarily "logical." I didnt sit down and write out a list of 10 reasons it disagreed with my logic. Rather it was a gut feeling, something deep inside that said it just wasnt for me. Sure, I saw all of those logical reasons during my many years of catholic school and church, but thats only one half of the coin.

Personally, I think that deep down people have no faith in themselves. They see themselves as weak sinners who need direction. So they look to "God" to find that direction, they walk this path that was laid out for them long ago because it is easy, they asked for answers, and someone gave them to them. When in reality, live is about finding that path yourself, finding those answers on your own, that is the human experience. Be good because you WANT to be good, not because God told you to be good.

People need to stop worshipping gods, and worship themselves. And I dont mean that in an egotistical way, I mean dedicate yourself to strengthening your body, developing your mind, loving your friends and family. When you look back at your life from your deathbed, at least you'll know you've done something with your life.



emp
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03 May 2006, 11:21 am

autisticon wrote:
People need to stop worshipping gods, and worship themselves. And I dont mean that in an egotistical way, I mean dedicate yourself to strengthening your body, developing your mind, loving your friends and family. When you look back at your life from your deathbed, at least you'll know you've done something with your life.


That is some sage advice.



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03 May 2006, 2:47 pm

skafather84 wrote:
evil is a subjective term. all "evil" is logical, though.....for the most part anyways.


I believe what you are refering to is Faustianism

Personaly I don't believe evil is a subjective term. It is simply one that is difficult to define. Dr Michael Shermer wrote a book called "The Science of good and Evil". He attempts a evolutionary psycology based argument to define evil in scientific not religious terms. It's a thought provoking book I highly recommend it.


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skafather84
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03 May 2006, 7:28 pm

Scrapheap wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
evil is a subjective term. all "evil" is logical, though.....for the most part anyways.


I believe what you are refering to is Faustianism

Personaly I don't believe evil is a subjective term. It is simply one that is difficult to define. Dr Michael Shermer wrote a book called "The Science of good and Evil". He attempts a evolutionary psycology based argument to define evil in scientific not religious terms. It's a thought provoking book I highly recommend it.


evil is subjective....psychological anomolies alone create such "evil" people who have different definitions of evil. there's also the psychological effect of living outside the bounds of normal society where you end up creatinf your own morals and therefore what is "evil" is shifted.


i'd find it very hard to say that there is a definitive evil....maybe an evil that 98% of people agree on...but not real evil. so....subjective.



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03 May 2006, 11:30 pm

Scrapheap wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
evil is a subjective term. all "evil" is logical, though.....for the most part anyways.


I believe what you are refering to is Faustianism

Personaly I don't believe evil is a subjective term. It is simply one that is difficult to define. Dr Michael Shermer wrote a book called "The Science of good and Evil". He attempts a evolutionary psycology based argument to define evil in scientific not religious terms. It's a thought provoking book I highly recommend it.


The evolutionary psychology persective is the one I apply in such matters.



Laura
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04 May 2006, 12:10 am

There can't be good without evil so it must be good to be evil some times (I know I took this of South Park but who honestly cares)

The point is that can any one truly define good and evil actions if we didn’t know the difference in between the words and if it wasn’t in human nature to know what’s wrong or right. Personally I can’t class any thing as good and evil because to me they are just cleverly placed letters to form a word the only things I can class are wrong and right. But even my view of wrong got screwed up when I decided to take a knife to school because I thought it was right because it made me feel safer; how ever the teacher found me with it and put me on detention. When really the teacher didn’t understand that there were many different emotions going thought my mind but all the teacher cared about was that she thought it was wrong and not paying attention to the mental clarification of the student.


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Laura
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04 May 2006, 12:11 am

sorry repeat


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Scaramouche
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04 May 2006, 1:27 am

Laura wrote:
There can't be good without evil .

Why not?



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04 May 2006, 1:51 am

I've seen some advertisements that are pure evil!



sc
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04 May 2006, 3:59 am

Good and evil are a co-existence of opposites.

without good and evil there is only innocents, without concept. Perhaps.



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04 May 2006, 7:21 am

Scaramouche wrote:
Laura wrote:
There can't be good without evil .

Why not?


It is suggested that the contrast is necessary. If something is extemely morally good, one can at the least hypothetically consider a different stance or act. What's good, or evil, about something to which there is no conceivable alternate?

Relativism in evil comes, not infrequently, when one person, group or society defines their "good", and sees therefore as "evil" anyone not holding the same views.
The outsiders may of course reciprocate with a different set of goods and evils.



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04 May 2006, 9:08 am

The author only presented the most superficial reasons for not being Christian and dismissed them with quotes from a source that any skeptic worth his or her salt would consider biased (the Bible). I was hoping for some laughs but got some preacher's attempt to convert the heathenous nonbeliever instead.



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04 May 2006, 2:42 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
The author only presented the most superficial reasons for not being Christian and dismissed them with quotes from a source that any skeptic worth his or her salt would consider biased (the Bible). I was hoping for some laughs but got some preacher's attempt to convert the heathenous nonbeliever instead.


Yeah, I'm pretty dissapointed too... :roll:


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04 May 2006, 2:55 pm

Laura wrote:
There can't be good without evil so it must be good to be evil some times (I know I took this of South Park but who honestly cares)

The point is that can any one truly define good and evil actions if we didn’t know the difference in between the words and if it wasn’t in human nature to know what’s wrong or right. Personally I can’t class any thing as good and evil because to me they are just cleverly placed letters to form a word the only things I can class are wrong and right. But even my view of wrong got screwed up when I decided to take a knife to school because I thought it was right because it made me feel safer; how ever the teacher found me with it and put me on detention. When really the teacher didn’t understand that there were many different emotions going thought my mind but all the teacher cared about was that she thought it was wrong and not paying attention to the mental clarification of the student.


I think the problem that those who heve posted counter-arguments (though they are certianly valid) is that they refer to good and evil in pure terms. The point that you took from south park is partialy what I'm trying to explain. There is no such thing as 100% good and 100% evil people/actions/things. Pure Good and Evil exist in theory only. In the real world we deal in different shades of gray. (Did everyone here see the movie "Crash")
The point that skafather84 made I think is only valid within the context of individual evolution theory. This contrasts with group evolution theory which I think does a better job of explaining humanity as a whole. Although from the standpoint of the "evil" person, their behavior is quite justified. (does that make any sense??)


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jonathan79
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04 May 2006, 3:31 pm

The author here refutes himself by posting at all. Belief in Christianity is based on faith, not logic. By attempting to put his faith on logical footing, he has already provided the biggest objection to his belief system. One needs not point out the flaws in his logical reasoning, one just simply has to point out that he has tried to reason at all.



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04 May 2006, 3:59 pm

Scrapheap wrote:
...from the standpoint of the "evil" person, their behavior is quite justified.


Those who have tortured and killed children in order to "cast out demons" or "end possession" would fit that, for example. Or the forcible removal of Aboriginal children in Australia order to "civilise" them...

Which may give us one place to find real indisputable evil:

When an individual knows clearly, in their own mind,
what is the right thing to do, and acts otherwise.

(He said, waiting for the dispute incoming!)