any freethinkers here?

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leejosepho
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08 Aug 2010, 6:21 pm

daniel3103 wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

I have no idea what counts for "free thinking".

I would consider myself a critical thinker than make any pretension to being free and open.

A freethinker is someone who only uses logic, observation and reason in order to form opinions. Free, in this sense, means free of dogma or untested beliefs.

I see some of the bound thinkers a little farther on down the line are unable to consider "free" ...

One thing required for "free thinking" to be possible at all is to know it ultimately makes absolutely no difference what one even thinks. So then, "free thinking" amounts to being able to think past oneself.

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GreySun369
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08 Aug 2010, 6:30 pm

leejosepho wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

GreySun369 wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Like any good scientist, I take things at face value and begin investigating and digging in order to uncover and discover.

You're a scientist? That's really cool!

What kind are you?

He didn't say he was. He said "like any good scientist", which doesn't say he is or isn't. I wouldn't think he is a scientist though.

No, that was just a tongue-in-cheek stretch within the science of living life on life's terms.

Ah, taking things too literally. One of my flaws. :oops:

leejosepho
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08 Aug 2010, 6:58 pm

GreySun369 wrote:

Ah, taking things too literally. One of my flaws. :oops:

Flaw? Nah. I do that all the time!

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ruveyn
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08 Aug 2010, 7:00 pm

GreySun369 wrote:

I think you'd be suprised to know that more Americans share that point of view then you think.

I would be surprised. Most of the pious generalities I hear in public are altruistic in nature. Perhaps many Americans advocate selfishness, but few will do it publicly.

I, on the other hand, say/write what I think and I don't give f*ck all what other people think of it.

ruveyn

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09 Aug 2010, 12:37 am

To be free of dogma and untested beliefs....

Why is that a person that doesn't exist? Can a person not be free of beliefs? Paradigm free shall we say?

I guess it depends on what you use as a definition for the word belief.
To believe something to be so can mean a lot of different things.
Fundy christians believe that god created the world 6016 years ago. They will not allow, and condemn any challenge to such a statement, to the point of avoiding mention of alternatives and segregating their children from it, at the cost of segregating everyone's children from it.

I believe that if I roll a die 20 times, at least once it'll come up a 6.
Of course I know that there is a 2.608% chance that i'm wrong, assuming the die is fair.

I accept that with everything, there is a chance that my "belief" is wrong.
I am willing to listen to any argument that can be made for anything, inline with or contrary to, my current beliefs, (unless of course i've heard the same argument over and over again in the past such as the ontological argument for god)

Better put, I don't "believe" anything. instead I apply probability to anything and everything. The probabilities may be so overwhelming so as to allow me to live my life as though it were true, but I do not "believe" it. (even if i often use the word for convenience)

To me, that is the definition of a free thinker.

Instead of listening first to what others have said, go straight to the data.
What others may have said can be useful for finding new avenues of research, but not for defining an opinion.

For a religious person to be a freethinker.... If god were to stand in front of you, and issue a commandment to you, you would have to ask him "why?" and then research it to ensure his commandment was valid.

There's a good internet radio station for free thought.
http://www.freethoughtradio.com/

leejosepho
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09 Aug 2010, 8:32 am

Exclavius wrote:

To be free of dogma and untested beliefs....

... willing to listen to any argument that can be made for anything, inline with or contrary to, my current beliefs ...

To me, that is the definition of a free thinker.

...

If god were to stand in front of you, and issue a commandment to you, you would have to ask him "why?"

We were in agreement all the way up to that last part. A commandment is not a thought. And in fact, my own obedience is, at least in part, a result of my own free thinking.

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daniel3103
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09 Aug 2010, 12:12 pm

Exclavius wrote:

I accept that with everything, there is a chance that my "belief" is wrong.
I am willing to listen to any argument that can be made for anything, inline with or contrary to, my current beliefs, (unless of course i've heard the same argument over and over again in the past such as the ontological argument for god)

Better put, I don't "believe" anything. instead I apply probability to anything and everything. The probabilities may be so overwhelming so as to allow me to live my life as though it were true, but I do not "believe" it. (even if i often use the word for convenience)

To me, that is the definition of a free thinker.

Instead of listening first to what others have said, go straight to the data.
What others may have said can be useful for finding new avenues of research, but not for defining an opinion.

That summarises very well what I meant. You have put it better than I could have done.

It's nice to see that there are some like-minded people on this forum.

daniel3103
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09 Aug 2010, 12:20 pm

just_ben wrote:

I'm moving to Southampton in September, but I've been on the coast all my life.

I live in the western wards of Fareham, and work in Southampton.

Where are you at the moment? Why are you coming to Southampton? (if you don't mind me asking)

just_ben wrote:

I mean, A freethinker can still agree with mainstream opinions and stuff, so how can you define something that vague?

A freethinker can agree with mainstream opinions, but not because they are mainstream opinions.

If, as a freethinker, I agree with mainstream opinion on something, it's because I have thought about the issue, considered the evidence, and reached my own conclusion, which, in this case, happens to agree with mainstream opinion. Sometimes I reach conclusions that agree with mainstream opinions, and sometimes I reach conclusions that don't.

daniel3103
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09 Aug 2010, 12:23 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

I'm not afraid to think something if I really feel like it.

A lot of my beliefs are based on intuition

That is definitely not freethinking. Freethinkers base their beliefs on logic, observation and reason.

skafather84
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09 Aug 2010, 12:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

I charge for my thoughts.

ruveyn

But thankfully your thoughts are so commonplace in the market, they're rendered free.

I am an advocate of egotism, selfishness and non-forgiveness. That puts me at odds with the current thought and sentiment in the U.S. I do not believe in feeding the worthless poor and hungry and I do not believe in sacrificing my interests in favor of the interests of others.

Almost any American believes that selfishness is wrong on principle. I believe it is necessary for survival.

If you need a friend, get a dog. Don't come to me.

ruveyn

Again, so commonplace that it's value is worthless just in terms of availability. Even the idea that you're somehow unique.

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Orwell
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09 Aug 2010, 1:26 pm

daniel3103 wrote:

If, as a freethinker, I agree with mainstream opinion on something, it's because I have thought about the issue, considered the evidence, and reached my own conclusion, which, in this case, happens to agree with mainstream opinion. Sometimes I reach conclusions that agree with mainstream opinions, and sometimes I reach conclusions that don't.

Unlikely. If you examined your reasons for believing everything, you would never have gotten to the point where held any views at all.

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DarthMetaKnight
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09 Aug 2010, 1:43 pm

Orwell wrote:

daniel3103 wrote:

Unlikely. If you examined your reasons for believing everything, you would never have gotten to the point where held any views at all.

Agreed. I examine my reasons for believing most things and as a result I'm agnostic about almost everything.

"My goal is to try to get people into a state of generalized agnosticism, not agnosticism about God alone, but agnosticism about everything."
-Robert Anton Wilson

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skafather84
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09 Aug 2010, 2:03 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

"My goal is to try to get people into a state of generalized agnosticism, not agnosticism about God alone, but agnosticism about everything."
-Robert Anton Wilson

Love RAW. Maybe Logic is great.

greenblue
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09 Aug 2010, 2:34 pm

I am a freethinker because my mind is not limited to what the church says or what an establishment says.

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09 Aug 2010, 2:53 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

Orwell wrote:

daniel3103 wrote:

Unlikely. If you examined your reasons for believing everything, you would never have gotten to the point where held any views at all.

Agreed. I examine my reasons for believing most things and as a result I'm agnostic about almost everything.

I highly doubt it. In all likelihood you take a lot more for granted than you realize. You apply empirical observation and logical reasoning to a few things around the fringe of your knowledge, perhaps, but almost certainly not to your entire worldview.

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Awesomelyglorious
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09 Aug 2010, 3:14 pm

daniel3103 wrote:

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

I'm not afraid to think something if I really feel like it.

A lot of my beliefs are based on intuition

That is definitely not freethinking. Freethinkers base their beliefs on logic, observation and reason.

Umm.... the issue is that logic and observation really don't get you a lot of the points you actually are working from. The fact of the matter is that generally everybody uses their intuitions. I mean, I can be pretty certain as a matter of fact, that you haven't derived all of your views on just logic and observation, but rather that the whole matter is more complex than that. Heck, the nature of observation is more complex than that. So... yeah, I think that what is proposed does not match reality or a result of reason.

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