An Empire Painted in Blood

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iamnotaparakeet
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29 Aug 2010, 11:33 pm

Orwell wrote:

Keet, do you know what a standing army is? It usually refers to a peacetime military force. The US armed forces during WWII do not match that description.

Sheesh, PPR denizens. You lot sorely need to review your civics. This kind of thing is why I distrust democracy.

I know one thing: I am tired and bored and here to pester. Or would that be three? Oh well. Wouldn't military personnel kept trained and on hand during all times be a standing army? Or did we need to train an army from scratch alone for participation in WWII?

Wombat
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29 Aug 2010, 11:42 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

I don't know, but if we didn't have a standing army, navy, and air force during WWII, Europe might as well be named Greater Germany and much of the Pacific named The Protectorates of Imperial Japan.

So what? We fought to protect Europe against the Germans and the Commie Russians ended up taking half of Europe anyway. How was that a great success?

If two Asian or South American countries want to kick the tar out of each other how is that our business?

I couldn't give a hoot if Israel bombs Iran or Iran bombs Israel. It is no skin off my nose either way.

You don't see countries like Sweden or New Zealand saying "we need a naval presence in the Mediterranean".
Really? Why? Why would New Zealand need ships in the Mediterranean? For that matter why would America?

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29 Aug 2010, 11:47 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Orwell wrote:

My comment was not directed solely, or even primarily, at you. People who make utterly spurious claims about our Constitution, or who appear to be under the impression that we are still at war in Iraq, are much more concerning than a simple confusion of a term's definition.

But for the record, prior to WWII we had no significant standing army. We operated under the blithe assumption that, as in WWI, we would simply assemble a military when it was necessary and not need to have a standing army. FDR did begin a massive military build-up in anticipation of our entry into the war, but given that war already seemed inevitable this was hardly a peacetime force.

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Orwell
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29 Aug 2010, 11:55 pm

Wombat wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

I don't know, but if we didn't have a standing army, navy, and air force during WWII, Europe might as well be named Greater Germany and much of the Pacific named The Protectorates of Imperial Japan.

So what? We fought to protect Europe against the Germans and the Commie Russians ended up taking half of Europe anyway. How was that a great success?

*facepalm*

Wombat, we were allied with the "Commie Russians" during WWII.

Quote:

If two Asian or South American countries want to kick the tar out of each other how is that our business?

If it affects our interests, it becomes our business. Also, there is the minor matter of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

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Wombat
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30 Aug 2010, 12:26 am

Orwell wrote:

If it affects our interests, it becomes our business. Also, there is the minor matter of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

Ahh! Google "Smedley Butler".
That is what it boils down to. If some American company is exploiting the peasants in some foreign country and they want to stop it then we send in the CIA and the Marines to create a "regime change"

zer0netgain
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30 Aug 2010, 7:39 am

Orwell wrote:

Um... you're arguing a moot point. The war in Iraq is over. We more or less "won" and our last combat troops left about a week and a half ago. Seriously, do people follow the news anymore?

Well, that's true only if you interpret "won" to mean we kept redefining the mission objectives until we got an attainable outcome we could leave under. In terms of what we initially claimed was the mission objective, Iraq was yet another failure. Even our "exit" is a play on words. We pulled out the last of the dedicated combat units, but we still have 4 massive bases with armed personnel able to defend themselves in Iraq. It's going to be the new Korea (in regards to deployment of forces).

Orwell wrote:

We are still engaged in Afghanistan, unfortunately, and I'd like to hear any suggestions for how we could get out of there quickly without leaving them to the wolves. Petraeus has been put in charge there following the McChrystal scandal, and if history is any guide he will do as well as anyone could to stabilize Afghanistan and ensure its security before we leave.

Sadly, both were clear mistakes. It will end just as Iraq is now. We'll get things to a place where we can claim they can self-govern and pull out. The only difference is that so long as our oil and gas interests are unaffected, we won't intervene to maintain the government of Afghanistan. Otherwise, we might be there for the long term.

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30 Aug 2010, 8:54 am

zer0netgain wrote:

Hence "won" being in quotes. We managed to leave on our own terms without leaving as big a mess as there could have been.

And yes, zero, we are exiting. There are some support troops remaining in an advisory role (ie they will not be in charge of maintaining security or much of anything else) and even those are leaving next year. There are no plans for permanent bases in Iraq.

Quote:

Did we take Iraq's oil and gas? Pretty sure they got to keep it.

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Sand
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30 Aug 2010, 9:29 am

Orwell wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

Quote:

Did we take Iraq's oil and gas? Pretty sure they got to keep it.

See http://www.counterpunch.org/baroud08302010.html

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30 Aug 2010, 10:27 am

Sand wrote:

See http://www.counterpunch.org/baroud08302010.html

If you want to ignore facts you're free to do so. The truth is that our exit plans were in place well before Obama was elected, and we are actually following those plans. The combat mission is over, and the remaining troops are all leaving by next year. We have no permanent bases there, and it will be up the Iraqis to figure out their political affairs.

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Craig28
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30 Aug 2010, 10:44 am

So while the world awaits the US exit plans from Afghanistan, I have to announce the death of a further 7 US soldiers.

This makes a change, its always our UK soldiers that are getting killed. Thanks to the US and putting our forces into more dangerous areas while the US are elsewhere in a quieter part of Helmand sitting on their backsides getting high off the Heroin crops they are helping to protect.

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30 Aug 2010, 1:48 pm

Orwell wrote:

The truth is that our exit plans were in place well before Obama was elected, and we are actually following those plans.

For someone so fond of wikipedia, why didn't you believe it this time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal ... _from_Iraq

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30 Aug 2010, 1:54 pm

Asmodeus wrote:

Orwell wrote:

The truth is that our exit plans were in place well before Obama was elected, and we are actually following those plans.

For someone so fond of wikipedia, why didn't you believe it this time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal ... _from_Iraq

How do you mean? That wiki article makes no mention of the plans for withdrawal in place under the Bush administration, but I quite distinctly recall reading of them at the time. Towards the end of the Bush administration, arrangements were made for a loose timetable for the withdrawal of US forces in 2010 and 2011. I suppose I can try to dig up some old news articles on the subject if you don't believe me.

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Asmodeus
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30 Aug 2010, 2:58 pm

Orwell wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:

Orwell wrote:

The truth is that our exit plans were in place well before Obama was elected, and we are actually following those plans.

For someone so fond of wikipedia, why didn't you believe it this time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal ... _from_Iraq

The Bush administration indeed mentioned things about a timetable, but nothing clear was stated until very recently. I'm inclined to agree, but loose in the sense that if he was still in power it'd just be delayed indefinately.

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30 Aug 2010, 5:27 pm

Asmodeus wrote:

Unless the reports I read were incorrect, they had the timetable drawn up before the '08 election. As for whether it would have been delayed... that is pure speculation. Perhaps it would have been, perhaps not.

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iamnotaparakeet
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30 Aug 2010, 5:30 pm

Orwell wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:

Know ye not that Bush is a tyrant still in power? Let us band together and force upon him the signing of the Magna Carta!! !!

greenblue
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30 Aug 2010, 5:35 pm

Orwell wrote:

Sheesh, PPR denizens. You lot sorely need to review your civics. This kind of thing is why I distrust democracy.

well, it seems that that is exactly what politicians count on, isn't it?

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