Why Obama is worse than Nixon

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11 Mar 2011, 10:47 pm

It is rather silly to just downright say Al-Jazeera is somehow supposed to be less objective than say... CNN. I am a foreign to both Arabs and Americans and I would say that the scale of objectivity goes somewhere like:

BBC > Al-Jazeera > CNN >= Fox News

But that's probably because CNN and Fox News' crazy biasedness smells at a long distance.

Anyway, feel free to notice the '/opinion/' part of the URL to note that it is an opinion piece and not a news article.

I posted it because it eventually makes a good point anyway. Obama is effectively worse or as bad as Nixon in this aspect. The info about all the torture aspect of Manning's treatment has multiple sources, not exclusively equal to 'zeera. It has been the subject of at least another thread.

Quote:

Look at the OP, I'm pretty sure it was Vexcalibur and not simon.

Vexcalibur was what? I do not think Manning's treatment is legal.

simon_says wrote:

I'm arguing that we don't know all of the details of his treatment.

Does the problem, isn't it? Why is your government making the details about the treatment of a non-convicted US citizen so obscure? Whoever said that if you got "nothing to hide".

BTW, even the state department spokesman notices how wrong the whole Manning treatment deal is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12717275

Quote:

But I see him as a traitor.

[x] Zombie.

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techstepgenr8tion
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11 Mar 2011, 11:05 pm

skafather84 wrote:

I'm not sure I'd say Obama is worse than Nixon. I think if Nixon had the same availabilities today back when he was president, he would have done the same. The War Against Terrorism (TWAT for short) has granted a lot of availability to torture and what not and I'm against all of it.

Then again, if we ever want to look at 'real' Whitehouse drama and intrigue, I'm not sure anything touches the John F. Kennedy days. Mob ties? Famous actresses 'committing suicide' or cars going into the Chappaquiddick complete with mistresses? I don't think anyone since has even come close.

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11 Mar 2011, 11:07 pm

simon_says wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Something worth mentioning perhaps..... you guys do realize you're reading an article from... English Al Jazeera..... right?

Not sure why you're saying guys when simon_says is the only one arguing that it's okay and legal.
.

I'm arguing that we don't know all of the details of his treatment.

But I see him as a traitor. I'm hoping he's found guilty and the judge sets aside the life sentence and executes him. Privates don't get to release half a million war documents just because they are unhappy with their service and looking for a purpose in life.

Details -> http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/
You really can't get more detailed than what his defense reports.

Traitor or no, he's still afforded his constitutional rights before trial and preemptive punishment is not how the justice system is supposed to work.

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11 Mar 2011, 11:07 pm

Quote:

Does the problem, isn't it? Why is your government making the details about the treatment of a non-convicted US citizen so obscure? Whoever said that if you got "nothing to hide".

In what universe do the administrative details of military prisoners get released? Are you used to getting updates on them?

Quote:

[x] Zombie

Oh no, someone disagreed with you. Try to hold it together. You'll live.

Quote:

Traitor or no, he's still afforded his constitutional rights before trial and preemptive punishment is not how the justice system is supposed to work.

Stop violating my constitutional rights. See, anyone can claim that. Proving it is another matter. Prisons have regulations and wardens have a lot of latitutde. As a general rule, you don't want to go there.

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11 Mar 2011, 11:21 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Yep. Kennedy was not a good man. No argument here...then it just got worse with El BJ and so on. Eisenhower was probably the last decent president. I seriously doubt Al Gore would have done that well but him spearheading the legislative front for support for the arpanet was notable (and later distorted by Fox News into "HE INVENTED THE INTERNET HAHA!!")...but then again, his wife is a b***h on a level around Hillary or Nancy (and I'll never forgive her for trying to get Jello and the Kennedys arrested).

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11 Mar 2011, 11:28 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Yep. Kennedy was not a good man. No argument here...then it just got worse with El BJ and so on. Eisenhower was probably the last decent president. I seriously doubt Al Gore would have done that well but him spearheading the legislative front for support for the arpanet was notable (and later distorted by Fox News into "HE INVENTED THE INTERNET HAHA!!")...but then again, his wife is a b***h on a level around Hillary or Nancy (and I'll never forgive her for trying to get Jello and the Kennedys arrested).

Ughgghghggh (evil chills)....Great Society... the single most racist bit of legislation since Jim Crow.

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12 Mar 2011, 12:39 pm

Quote:

Details -> http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/
You really can't get more detailed than what his defense reports.

Yeah, we should just take the word of someone's hired advocate and call it a day. Only one side to any issue after all. All we know about the event is what his attorney has admitted. The military is not releasing details, citing Manning's privacy. Manning's advocate is naturally telling a version of events most helpful to his client. That's his job. But even his attorney credits Manning's comments to "psychological problems".

But you don't talk about bombs on an airplane, you don't yell fire in a theater and you don't joke about suicide while in custody. Unless you want the system to step in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/world/06manning.html

They can't afford to lose a high profile prisoner with a history of psychological problems to suicide if there is a record of him saying such things. It will negatively affect their careers. Why would they take any risks for him? Was more said that a "sarcastic joke"? We don't know. We only have the version provided by his attorney. An attorney is not impartial.

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12 Mar 2011, 12:58 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Orwell wrote:

So? The facts are correct, and are corroborated by plenty of other media sources (or, in the case of Nixon references, the historical record).

I'm fine with that, just that I hope people do the same if Fox News posts something truthful. If we motive-monger Fox but not Al Jazeera we've got our pants on backward.

I wouldn't hold my breath, they won't believe Fox simply because Fox News will not conform with the leftist worldview that the source of all evil is the United States.

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13 Mar 2011, 12:31 pm

simon_says wrote:

Quote:

Details -> http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/
You really can't get more detailed than what his defense reports.

If you find a DoD source that claims that Coomb's information is incorrect, then please do so. As far I know, no one else from the military or DoD has cried foul over anything Coomb's has said about his work with Manning. So right now, there's little logical reason to assume he's fabricating any of this. Of course he is advocating for his client, that is his job, but since no one else is providing any details of Manning's situation and he's the only person in regular contact with Manning who's willing to say anything, he's the only source on said details for now.

Vexcalibur wrote:

BTW, even the state department spokesman notices how wrong the whole Manning treatment deal is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12717275

BTW, guess who's getting pressured to leave the DoD now? :roll:

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13 Mar 2011, 12:36 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

To this day, I think of Teddy as the Swimmer of Chappaquiddick. I once took a bike ride over Dike bridge. It was clear Teddy was driving drunk or getting head while driving. There are no rails on the bridge. Just four inch beams that stand slightly above the roadway.

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13 Mar 2011, 1:58 pm

Quote:

f you find a DoD source that claims that Coomb's information is incorrect, then please do so. As far I know, no one else from the military or DoD has cried foul over anything Coomb's has said about his work with Manning.

The DoD said they won't discuss it due to privacy issues. Manning's attorney wasnt even there, he's reciting the version supplied by his client and then stating it in a favorable way.

I understand that you are emotional and want to believe one side of the story is absolutely true. Do you believe the version of events supplied by every lawyer in the country? No, I didnt think so. Just when it suits your politics.

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13 Mar 2011, 2:32 pm

PJ Crowley has "resigned" after calling the treatment of Bradley Manning ""ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid".

Nice one Obama.

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13 Mar 2011, 2:56 pm

simon_says wrote:

Quote:

[x] Zombie

Oh no, someone disagreed with you. Try to hold it together. You'll live.

Yep anything that opposes his views must be founded on nothing more than rhetoric. Never mind that there are legitimate reasons to believe that leaking classified information without verifying that any illegal activity occurred is a threat to national security.

And yeah I'm reserving judgment for the most part on this torture thing until I get all the facts straight. I agree with him being locked up in protective custody since he is a security risk, and I know for a fact that strip searching is routine in prisons (though body cavity searches may require supervisor approval) so those things are fine. However it is pretty excessive for him to not have a pillow and bedsheets, and he should be allowed to exercise in his cell.

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13 Mar 2011, 4:49 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

Never mind that there are legitimate reasons to believe that leaking classified information without verifying that any illegal activity occurred is a threat to national security.

If the government actually believed there was any serious threat to national security and cared about reducing those threats, they would have assisted Wikileaks in redacting the releases to minimize the potential damage. They refused to do so; ergo either there is no national security risk, or our government just doesn't give a damn about actually keeping us safe, in which case we aren't any better off by having the government in exclusive control over this information.

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13 Mar 2011, 4:59 pm

simon_says wrote:

I understand that you are emotional and want to believe one side of the story is absolutely true. Do you believe the version of events supplied by every lawyer in the country? No, I didnt think so. Just when it suits your politics.

Umm, don't go making blanant asumptions about me. You don't know me.

I could ask the same of your blind trust in the DoD and Obama in this matter. They can refute any of this without violating Manning's privacy(of which they evidently don't really care about). I also might add that Coombs is part of the military as well and he probably would'nt have his position if he just fabricates things.

Point is, the DoD could be handling this a lot better. Sorry you can't realize that.

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13 Mar 2011, 6:23 pm

Quote:

Umm, don't go making blanant asumptions about me. You don't know me..

Coombs doesnt know what happened first hand. He's reporting what Manning has told him. We know that Manning is a poor soldier with a history of psychological problems, and even assault, who now finds himself charged with aiding the enemy. He's developed quite a trail of strange behavior. And his lawyers defense of the comments? Psychological problems.

I don't know how you weigh things but I think that Manning is unbalanced. I don't usually place a lot of weight in the comments of such people. It's possible he's right though. I just don't know.

He's not in Disneyland, he's in the care of blue collar men in a high stress environment. Time to be smart. If he's not smart, life will be hard in prison for him. And if they put a man charged with aiding the enemy into the general population of a marine corp brig, I'm not sure that he'd last long.

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