Brain structure differs in liberals, conservatives: study

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AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 1:25 pm

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Your political view has absolutely nothing to do with human nature? Everything about politics comes down to dealing with other people, that doesn't make any sense at all.

No, my political views are merely an extension of my ethical views, which are normative prescriptions about what would be most beneficial to mankind, other organisms, and the planet we share, according to my subjective conception of desirable.
Ok so then your political views centre around human nature + the nature of animals.

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
And the whole point of me pointing out that I'm right wing and can handle ambiguity is not to prove that there's always the odd one out, but that this study is not only making a link between fear + tolerance of ambiguity and one's entire political alignment but also making it out to be the norm.

They rounded up some people, found a cool correlative pattern based on their political ID and images of their gray matter, said more studies are needed, and now you're raging against them. That's all I'm getting.
I'm "raging" against em? How could I be raging against em if I think this study is a joke? And where does it say in the article that more studies are needed? The internet is a funny place, I always get that I'm "angry" just cuz I think something is BS.

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
It's a complete hack job. Low sample size and they didn't tell us where the brain activity came from. If they showed liberals pictures of guns I'm sure a liberal's amygdala would go apeshit with hyperactivity just like conservatives would with pictures of gay marriage.

I'm a gun-loving Leftist with a gay Republican brother. That's what you get for trying to put people into boxes, and why sometimes in studies it's best to let people self-identify.
Well being against gay marriage is more prevalent among Republicans and being for gun control is more prevalent among liberals, so how did they conduct the experiments to provoke higher amygdala activity? And yes I know that not all republicans are against gay marriage and all Democrats are for gun control. Michael Moore is a Catholic who disagrees with their views on gay marriage and abortion. But this isn't the norm with Catholics (not to say there is no controversy at all and that there's unanimous agreement but it's more prevalent among Catholics).

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Quote:
But the central issue in determining political views appears to revolve around fear and how it affects a person. [/b]
That's a part of politics, it doesn't revolve around politics.

Uh. The fact that it qualifies the assertion with "appears to", as opposed to a bald declaration,
like yours that fear doesn't revolve around politics (I'm sure you meant politics don't revolve around fear).
It would appear, as the authors of this study say, that more studies are needed.
Where do they say more studies are needed? Yeah I meant politics don't revolve around fear. And yes I know they say "appears to" but that just sounds like a dubious disclaimer since they sound pretty certain here:
Quote:
"Our findings are consistent with the proposal that political orientation is associated with psychological processes for managing fear and uncertainty," the study said.
I'm aware that they said "associated with" here instead of "revolves around", but still the whole poiont of the study is that conservatives are physiologically more sensitive to fear and disgust while liberals are physiologically more tolerant of ambiguity. What they seem to be unsure of is whether this is a cause or an effect, but what they seem sure on is that these differences are either what political views revolve around or are major factors to one's political views. I find both of these ridiculous since political views involve such a complex interaction between all parts of the brain that you can't just narrow it down to one or two sections of the brain. It hasn't even been made clear whether conservatives are more sensitive to fear or disgust in reaction to anything in general or if the studies were conducted in a way that provokes hyperactivity in the amygdala.

How are they even remotely certain that entire political views revolve around fear and ambiguity tolerance since both sides fear certain things and tolerate ambiguity on certain things? Like whenever it comes to poverty, liberals tend to be tolerant about the vague idea of throwing money and books at the poor to help em. Likewise whenever it comes to family values conservatives tend to be tolerant about the vaguenesss of what "family values" are other than the nuclear family model.

I did see this one study that shows both conservatives and liberals are functioning in their limbic system when it comes to things they're biased on and they swore up and down they were being rational when the activity in their limbic systems were way more active when things got heated than their prefrontal cortexes. I'll post a thread once I find this. I think the dude's name was Dr. Drew Western or w/e.



NeantHumain
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12 Apr 2011, 7:42 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
...conservatives tend to be tolerant about the vaguenesss of what "family values" are other than the nuclear family model.

Conservatives tolerate ambiguity about what family values mean to them? The more religious and conservative a person gets, the more dogmatic and rigid they are about what constitutes a proper family, gender roles, etc.
  • What feminists call "patriarchy" (a gender-based social-dominance orientation favoring males over females)
  • No abortion
  • No premarital or extramarital sex
  • Focus on having and raising children
  • Instilling children with religion
  • No divorce

Liberals tolerate more diverse models of the family: remarriage, gay marriage, gay adoption, childless couples, living single, etc.



Master_Pedant
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12 Apr 2011, 7:54 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
...conservatives tend to be tolerant about the vaguenesss of what "family values" are other than the nuclear family model.

Conservatives tolerate ambiguity about what family values mean to them? The more religious and conservative a person gets, the more dogmatic and rigid they are about what constitutes a proper family, gender roles, etc.
  • What feminists call "patriarchy" (a gender-based social-dominance orientation favoring males over females)
  • No abortion
  • No premarital or extramarital sex
  • Focus on having and raising children
  • Instilling children with religion
  • No divorce
Liberals tolerate more diverse models of the family: remarriage, gay marriage, gay adoption, childless couples, living single, etc.


I've always wondered if the Con-Artists have a position on single fathers. On the one hand, they tend to idealize the "nuclear family", on the other hand... I haven't really heard them complain at all about it.

  • Wow! so this is how you make bullet points!


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Subotai
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13 Apr 2011, 2:04 am

skafather84 wrote:
So that means in order to sway conservatives, we have to make them scared...which apparently isn't too hard.


AKA Fox News



Inuyasha
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13 Apr 2011, 11:19 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
I've always wondered if the Con-Artists have a position on single fathers. On the one hand, they tend to idealize the "nuclear family", on the other hand... I haven't really heard them complain at all about it.


:roll:

First of all, we've seen recently that the real conartists are liberals not conservatives, though that is also insulting some conartists, because even they don't stoop as low as liberals.

@ Subotai

If the truth shows there is a good reason for a cause of concern, then a rational individual is correct in being concerned. Fox News gets more viewers than the other media outlets combined because they have something called journalistic integrity. They wouldn't be killing their competition in ratings, if the other outlets didn't all have serious credibility issues.



pandabear
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13 Apr 2011, 11:21 am

Inuyasha wrote:
First of all, we've seen recently that the real conartists are liberals not conservatives, though that is also insulting some conartists, because even they don't stoop as low as liberals.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



techstepgenr8tion
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13 Apr 2011, 11:29 am

Inuyasha wrote:
First of all, we've seen recently that the real conartists are liberals not conservatives, though that is also insulting some conartists, because even they don't stoop as low as liberals.


What you did wrong here is you didn't come up with something equally catchy and callow - like lie-berals. There, I gave you some ammo. Pleasure to coach ya. :lol:


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number5
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13 Apr 2011, 11:56 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Fox News gets more viewers than the other media outlets combined because they have something called journalistic integrity. They wouldn't be killing their competition in ratings, if the other outlets didn't all have serious credibility issues.


The Weekly World News was once among the highest circulated papers in the world (peaked at 1.2 million per issue).


Image

Clearly it's all about credibility.



Inuyasha
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13 Apr 2011, 12:00 pm

number5 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Fox News gets more viewers than the other media outlets combined because they have something called journalistic integrity. They wouldn't be killing their competition in ratings, if the other outlets didn't all have serious credibility issues.


The Weekly World News was once among the highest circulated papers in the world (peaked at 1.2 million per issue).


Image

Clearly it's all about credibility.


Actually National Enquirer lectured the New York Times, on Journalistic Integrity, so its a strange world. If Fox News actually aired stories like weekly world news, they wouldn't even be on the air or would be like Comedy Central's Daily Show.



Goodfella66
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13 Apr 2011, 2:51 pm

Liberal v. conservative... Fight, Round 2,345,890,001, Let's Get Ready To Rumble!! ! *Begins sleeping*

I tire of the Democrats, as they end up being wimps who cave when a Republican yells boo. And the Republicans need to shut up when they have nothing to say. There is no government for the people, here, folks. They fight back and forth, and in the end, we lose... If you need some proof, just look at the recent budget "battle."

They cut Education... Education...Edu-we-hate smart-people-cation! Then, added to Defense spending. Who wins here? Not the kids, not the parents, not the schools... The government needs a new plane to not fight with.

The government is a tank with two turrets, both cannons pointed at each other, as they drive over our faces, and the driver gets a tax cut. The top 1% are getting richer with each passing fiscal year, indicating that these fights aren't doing any good.

We don't have two political parties, we have a bowl of crap looking in the mirror at itself. So, don't divide into liberals v. conservatives... If you must divide, divide into poor v. rich...


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Bethie
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13 Apr 2011, 7:58 pm

Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Quote:
But the central issue in determining political views appears to revolve around fear and how it affects a person. [/b]
That's a part of politics, it doesn't revolve around politics.

What they seem to be unsure of is whether this is a cause or an effect, but what they seem sure on is that these differences are either what political views revolve around or are major factors to one's political views. I find both of these ridiculous since political views involve such a complex interaction between all parts of the brain that you can't just narrow it down to one or two sections of the brain.

Such is why they didn't make a claim that no other parts of the brain were involved,
merely that there is a correlation between political ideology and what can be found on a brain scan of the regions they examined.
An EXTREMELY modest claim is what they made, and it was consistent with their findings.
And your assertion that extremely complex interaction between all parts of the brain are needed for political views to form is exactly that-
a bald assertion.
It could very well be that our worldview is almost entirely determined by which of a few extremely basic and timeless motivators we are more sensitive to.


AceOfSpades wrote:
How are they even remotely certain that entire political views revolve around fear and ambiguity tolerance since both sides fear certain things and tolerate ambiguity on certain things?

They didn't say political views revolve around fear.
They published the results of brain imagery as correlated to political view,
with the implication that fear might be a MORE pronounced component of a conservative's view as opposed to a liberal's.
I'm sorry this is so upsetting.

Article wrote:
"We found that greater liberalism was associated with increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex, whereas greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala," the study said.

Article wrote:
"Previously, some psychological traits were known to be predictive of an individual's political orientation," said Ryota Kanai of the University College London, where the research took place.

Article wrote:
"Our study now links such personality traits with specific brain structure."

Article wrote:
"Thus, it is conceivable that individuals with a larger ACC have a higher capacity to tolerate uncertainty and conflicts, allowing them to accept more liberal views."

Article wrote:
"Our findings are consistent with the proposal that political orientation is associated with psychological processes for managing fear and uncertainty," the study said.


If you can find an absolutist statement among the researchers, I'll eat my hat.


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AceOfSpades
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13 Apr 2011, 9:02 pm

Bethie wrote:
Bethie wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Quote:
But the central issue in determining political views appears to revolve around fear and how it affects a person. [/b]
That's a part of politics, it doesn't revolve around politics.

What they seem to be unsure of is whether this is a cause or an effect, but what they seem sure on is that these differences are either what political views revolve around or are major factors to one's political views. I find both of these ridiculous since political views involve such a complex interaction between all parts of the brain that you can't just narrow it down to one or two sections of the brain.

Such is why they didn't make a claim that no other parts of the brain were involved,
merely that there is a correlation between political ideology and what can be found on a brain scan of the regions they examined.
An EXTREMELY modest claim is what they made, and it was consistent with their findings.
And your assertion that extremely complex interaction between all parts of the brain are needed for political views to form is exactly that-
a bald assertion.
It could very well be that our worldview is almost entirely determined by which of a few extremely basic and timeless motivators we are more sensitive to.


AceOfSpades wrote:
How are they even remotely certain that entire political views revolve around fear and ambiguity tolerance since both sides fear certain things and tolerate ambiguity on certain things?

They didn't say political views revolve around fear.
They published the results of brain imagery as correlated to political view,
with the implication that fear might be a MORE pronounced component of a conservative's view as opposed to a liberal's.
I'm sorry this is so upsetting.

Article wrote:
"We found that greater liberalism was associated with increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex, whereas greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala," the study said.

Article wrote:
"Previously, some psychological traits were known to be predictive of an individual's political orientation," said Ryota Kanai of the University College London, where the research took place.

Article wrote:
"Our study now links such personality traits with specific brain structure."

Article wrote:
"Thus, it is conceivable that individuals with a larger ACC have a higher capacity to tolerate uncertainty and conflicts, allowing them to accept more liberal views."

Article wrote:
"Our findings are consistent with the proposal that political orientation is associated with psychological processes for managing fear and uncertainty," the study said.


If you can find an absolutist statement among the researchers, I'll eat my hat.
Strange, I actually scrutinized the crap outta the article a few times and after scrutinizing it once more, turns out you're right on this. I tend to be skeptical of studies of political views in general, it has nothing to do with me getting butthurt. However I would still like to know how they conducted this. Like did they ask questions? Show pictures? Activity in a region of the brain has more to do with connectivity than size.



Bethie
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13 Apr 2011, 10:11 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Strange, I actually scrutinized the crap outta the article a few times and after scrutinizing it once more, turns out you're right on this. I tend to be skeptical of studies of political views in general, it has nothing to do with me getting butthurt. However I would still like to know how they conducted this. Like did they ask questions? Show pictures? Activity in a region of the brain has more to do with connectivity than size.


Yes, that would be very interesting. I'm trying to find where this was published, but having no luck....


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13 Apr 2011, 10:30 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFRgIb8mAQ[/youtube]

Any comments about the grey matter of this conservative?



Subotai
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14 Apr 2011, 12:17 am

Goodfella66 wrote:
Liberal v. conservative... Fight, Round 2,345,890,001, Let's Get Ready To Rumble!! ! *Begins sleeping*

I tire of the Democrats, as they end up being wimps who cave when a Republican yells boo. And the Republicans need to shut up when they have nothing to say. There is no government for the people, here, folks. They fight back and forth, and in the end, we lose... If you need some proof, just look at the recent budget "battle."

They cut Education... Education...Edu-we-hate smart-people-cation! Then, added to Defense spending. Who wins here? Not the kids, not the parents, not the schools... The government needs a new plane to not fight with.

The government is a tank with two turrets, both cannons pointed at each other, as they drive over our faces, and the driver gets a tax cut. The top 1% are getting richer with each passing fiscal year, indicating that these fights aren't doing any good.

We don't have two political parties, we have a bowl of crap looking in the mirror at itself. So, don't divide into liberals v. conservatives... If you must divide, divide into poor v. rich...


Indeed. The game is divide and conquer. Smoke and mirrors. Sleight of hand.