Religion

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No, No, you're missing the point. Whatever God is, if he exists, it is not that he is an egoist, merely those who interpreted his words. It could even be argued, at least in the older or original works of biblical significance, both those included in the modern bible and those left out to further the church's agenda, that God's word was mistranslated or misinterpreted by man, what we have today was retranslated, re edited, and re interpreted many times since to suit whatever agenda, church philosophy, or power hungry religous zealots ran the church at the time it was written or rewritten. You could, therefore blame God, provided he exists. Humans are the flaw and therefore at fault.

And even if God had made humans suseptable to sin, it is still human choice whether to commit it, that is part of the free choice/free thinking mind philosophy we debate about. If humans never had a choice in anything in the lives, as in an arguement against predestination, then why on Earth did God bother to give humans a mind of their own with intelligence?

Epimonandas, I just have to say that last post was genius. I totally agree.

Thank you! I feel goosebumps emerging...

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Strange how many people seem to think that Christianity and common sense are contradictory ...

Correction, not so strange. If you look at some christians - the ones who say "you can't be logical about it, you just have to believe it like we tell you"... Well, ugh . I call that sort of thing Churchianity.

Well, allow me to upset some prejudices here; actually the reason I believe in Christianity is that it makes sense; provided you can get rid of all the nonsense people (including many christians) think Christianity means (like the thing about the physical world being evil - Christianity is rare among religions in affirming matter as good, but how may people know that?). My own prejudice in this respect is that I tend to think people dislike Christianity because they dislike clear thinking... go figure .

I'm not going to have a discussion about this here; while I love the classic christian apologists like Chesterton (yes, follow that link! he'll make you think, and better still, laugh...), I'm not very good at the sort of thing myself; my attempts to explain things are defeated by my own exasperation about bad logic (which may be a character flaw), and I can't keep track of all the assumptions people have (which probably has to do with autism). Generally my attitude is like Dorothy Sayers': "God is simply taking advantage of the fact that I can't stand intellectual chaos, and it isn't fair."

I also think that if people really want to understand, they should read the intellectual giants, like C. S. Lewis and G. K. Chesterton (a giant in more than one way ), for themselves and draw their own conclusions; debates have the tendency to strengthen all parties in their own convictions, but books are less confrontational and allow you to reflect. (Chesterton reportedly sent a telegram to his wife once saying "Am at Market Harborough. Where ought I to be?" - methinks he should be at least somewhat congenial to the aspie mind ...)

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well, isn't this all becoming very interesting...

raketty - i know several christian druids, and they're great.

stevie - i agree with you on the dichotomy between organised religion and spirituality and any religion big enough and wise enough can take anyone having a pop at it in its stride, so why on earth poor old salman rushdie had to go into hiding for years is beyond me. it seems that it's safe to have a go at christianity, cos christians tend not to threaten fatwahs (although they can be just as bad...the Ku Klux Klan are christians). it boils down to fundamentalism, of any flavour - "i'm right, you're wrong and so i'm going to have to kill you." and that includes ANY fundamentalists, christians, muslims, pagans (oh yes - the "Burn the Christians" mob are just as bad). and this "tolerance" thing makes me laugh - "i'll tolerate your religion" is soooo superior and patronising. i urge you to read "Eye of Light" by Ken Wilbur - talks loads of sense, and pisses everybody off with his iconoclasm - be prepared to really THINK about your religion.

echospectra - yes, the metaphysical christians have some absolutely wonderful things to say about all sorts of stuff. teilhard de chardin, a jesuit priest, should be compulsory reading for anyone who calls themselves a christian/catholic (i was a catholic until my 30s). but then, the same could be said for any of the metaphysical religionists, or perhaps i should say the mystical side of religion - sufis in islam, julian of norwich, etc., etc.

i don't believe in good and evil. is it evil to hack off someone's leg? what if they have gangrene? depends on context, will, awareness and intent. and locus of control. if i do something inappropriate (such as hacking off someone's leg cos i'm cross with them), is it god or the devil's fault? no, i have an internal locus of control, and so i am responsible for my actions. i have choice, and choice means an internal locus of control. "conversations with god 1" by neale walsch (i think) is a good read for this particular subject. and if that choice WAS given to me by god/goddess, then i'll stand in front of them and argue the toss about what i do.

organised religion is mostly about power and politics. personal spirituality (for want of a better word) is about one's connexion with things other than the mundane, although i believe it should include and permeate the mundane - religion-on-a-sunday is a ritual, not a belief system (nothing wrong with that, if you admit it). and talking of belief... i don't believe in anything. do we have to "believe" in the postman? in trees? in buses? no, they just are. and that's what my "religion" is to me. with a massive dollop of personal responsiblity.

i could go on, but i won't.

Errrrr - that was the point I was trying to make, just in a more confrontational and sarcastic way than yourself..... Basically if God does exist (which I find unlikely, but won't completely discount), then his/her/its true nature is obviously completely and utterly unlike anything that any organised religion has ever come up with to push their twisted little interests on the Great Unwashed. He/she/it certainly doesn't give a monkey's about what any of us do/don't say/do in church/mosque/temple/whatever.

Vetivert: thanks for the words and book recommendation - I'd give it a go, but I absolutely hate reading so I probably won't be able to.... I'll wait for the film to come out And believe me, I'm more than happy to have a go at any religion, not just good old Christianity - why I haven't been fired for one of my infamous Islam rants in the office is beyond me (especially as the UK government is now in the process of making it illegal to do so for heaven's sake.... )

P.S. Didn't the Christians hunt down and kill all the Druids for being heretics once? Am I missing something here?

Last edited by TAFKASH on 23 Jan 2005, 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You are missing something very big. Druidism is NOT a religon, contrary to popular belief. It is a way of life. The only Christians who hunted my ansestors did so out of fear because they did not understand our ways. Just cause a person is a Druid dosen't mean that they follow the old Celtic beliefs. The chief diffrence between a "normal" Christian and and Druid Christian, is, for example, a "normal" Christian may look at a tree and say that God created that tree, a Druid however, would look at the same tree and say that part of God is still living in said tree. If that makes sense. God put that tree on the face of the earth for us to do what we will, if'n that tree would at one time be cut down to make a desk, that is why it is there.

on the thing about choice, there is no choice, millions of years before you were born, God (or what ever ye call him) knew every thing that you would do in your life, that if you'd have Asperger's or not, even what hair color you would have, so you really don't have a choice, even though you maybe givin a "Choice" it is your destiny (there I said it) that you would pick the choice that you did.

Fair do's matey. One thing though:

If God predisposed me to have all the beliefs etc. that I do have aeons ago, then why do I get chucked into Hell for having them? Don't sound very fair to me..... Whatever way you look at it, the supposed existence of "Heaven" and "Hell" just can't survive this kind of argument - we either all go to one, or we all go to t'other.....

Thus I believe that if anything religion is evolutionary. As the human race gets more mature they are ready for more truth and a more accurate understanding of the hypothetical real creative force.


Then why did he bother to give us minds. If I were a toy car with turning wheels, internal power, and remote control would it make sense to put me on a fixed track with a power strip groove in the center of each lane? Destiny cannot be so absolute, why would there be visions if there was never an ability to change it? Why would someone suddenly not take this turn for no reason to discover later that it would have been fatal to do so, that implies change from a predisposed future? Why would we have been made in the image of God, probably regarding creation, manipulation of environment, love, and intelligence as opposed to physical form, if we were merely a TV program with a prewritten script? It does not add up.

I don't think that if there is any predestination that is so absolute in every detail, that would leave no wiggle room and thus no need for minds or choice.

i like the idea of "wiggle room"....

raketty - i don't think the differences between christianity and druidism can be described simply in terms of animism, from both my own experience and all the other druids i know.

am now off to my wiggle room to... wiggle...

I know, but I'm ain't good at explaining stuff that ain't important, much less something like this, I'm just tryin' to put stuff into lamens terms, even though I know I failed horribly, I just know that untill I can get a friend of mine signed up, I won't get any help, she is the one who explains stuff for me.

try the OBOD website (Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids). they're the coolest (and least mental) of the druid mob. i know most of 'em too. used to help run their seasonal camps.

http://druidry.org/

Yes- personal spirituality is exactly how I would describe my 'belief system' (for want of a better term). It isn't something that you do just on a certain day (whether that by Sunday, a sabbat, etc) it should be something that is a part of your life everyday.
I don't believe that someones religion should give them a reason to disregard the issue of personal responsibility. It seems like a cop out to me.

(I'm aware I'm responding to something that was posted several days ago but I seem to have missed it until today),

My weirdo brother thinks he is demon and stuff but we all know that it is all a load of sh*t. My entire family (other than HIM of course) is christian so we are pretty normal. I'm not saying that people of other religions are different, I'm just saying that most of this planet is a form of prodestant, so don't get me wrong.

I like thinking God is life. Eg, God is the sun, the ground, the animals, my natural self, your natural self. All natural needs & desires - food, water, sex etc....it's all God for me

I'll tell you what I find "anti-religous" for me: factory farms, cages, school, mass-production, mega-huge companies, stress, - i mean come on - this stuff is what I call "devolution". It's like we're turning back into termites, or ants, or bees. All working for the queen or the manager to keep the hive buzzing grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

And I see a couple people talking bout sin - I reckon sinning is things like lying to yourself & others. This includes suppression of feelings and needs, and trying to control others.

Take the "time and effort" to download the song "Nature of the Threat" by Ras Kass......if you dare - don't say I didn't warn you though. Well...you're all supposedly mature anyway so you shouldn't cry too hard.

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