WrongPlanet.net an anti-christian site?

Post Reply New Topic

Anecdotes are not evidence. Asserting that your anecdotal evidence "proves" anything is a sure way to start a HUGE argument with logically-minded people - of which this particular site has a plethora.

I believe in the existence of God. I believe in the divinity of the Christ. However, I do not pretend the anecdotes that mean so much to me are real evidence. I believe what I believe for reasons that go beyond the rational, and cannot be proved or disproved.

On the other hand, no one has to believe in the theory of universal gravitation; whether you believe in it or not, it works. Its maths can be used to accurately predict the actions of bodies both on Earth and in the furthest reaches of space. And all the faith in the world won't enable you to fly like a bird without considerable technological assistance.

The problem here lies in all those Christians (and assorted other faiths - the worst offenders in this regard, in my experience, are neo-pagans) who seem to think that their anecdotes are evidence of something. That's not the way science works, boys and girls. In order to be provable, a concept must be testable under controlled conditions - which faith is not.

This is another one of thooose threads.

Do you intentionally avoid the simplicity of the question?

You do believe the sun will come up tomorrow ... and that was all that had been asked.

But of course, neither your belief nor mine will actually have anything to do with that happening.

If it gets too rough, just move it to the PPR "dumping ground", eh?!

Yes, indeed he same can be said of "spiritual phenomenon" i.e. that thousands of men and women believe in a power greater than themselves and that this belief has improved their psychological well being.
Note however, that this still doesn't mean that there is a divine being. It merely demonstrates the "reality" of the effect of belief on those people's lives.

Regarding an earlier post you made referring to a God of the gaps in terms of what drives the universe: As science delves deeper and deeper and unravels the mathematics of the way the universe works there is at no point any need to introduce any mysterious God phenomenon into any of this. Even regarding your comment about nothing coming from nothing... I wouldn't be surprised (this is pure conjecture on my part) that if the entire universe was summed it would indeed turn out to be nothing. Much in the way that the sum of negative one and positive one is zero. That may sound like a rather bleak thought to many people though!

Hey, I've not had this much fun in ages! It isn't often that I can be bothered to get involved in these sorts of threads nowadays. I can see it ending up being moved to PPR though. I'm largely to blame for it drifting somewhat off topic.

Hey, I respect PPR. It's all the people there that don't.

Also, I can see both sides of this thing. I kinda recognise that there's zero value in trying to share my spiritual life and ideas with those who aren't open to it.

Yes you are. I seem to be helping.

I think Tally won't use the word belief there to make a point.

The way my system works is, everything is a belief, but some beliefs have more likelihood of being true than others, a 'solidity' value. It can be true that I think I exist, but I also believe in it.

Again, that is backwards: There was first a simple willingness to believe, and it was then after the actual transformation that they/we actually did/do believe.


Understood, but science cannot come up with any other explanation that is viable.


I agree, but then why is there such a seeming need to specifically, categorically and/or vehemently exclude even the mere thought of any kind of God?


Yes, and neither does it make any logical sense.

True. There is no way I'm going to mention that I'm a Zen Buddhist and was once a Buddhist monk or both the religious mob and the atheists will be after me! Oops.

I've been on both sides of the fence and could argue either way. I find it interesting to see just how much and how deeply other people have really thought about the issues, both from an academic / scientific point of view and from the personal spiritual quest point of view. How many people are really prepared to take a hard look at their belief systems and if found to be incorrect to drop those beliefs. To many religious people their beliefs are their core being and cornerstone for life. Remove those and they have nothing. Or do they?

Proceeding very cautiously here while hoping to not be wrongly accused of harassing or talking bad about TallyMan or anyone else ...

Within rhetorical arenas where people have "positions" to be argued and/or defended -- I do not -- I simply lay all of my own cards on the table face-up for everyone to see ... and I believe that is best for the sake of allowing anyone or everyone present to think for themselves and to draw their own conclusions sans the danger of simply and/or even unwittingly swallowing mere rhetoric and/or any proffered or even "hidden agenda" conclusion/s ...

... but then once a long time ago, someone accused me of all of that being some kind of "debater's trick".

Go figure.

Same here ... and I hope other people take notice that we have not resorted to talking about each other at the expense of the actual question/s at hand.

OK. Two responses. First with my scientist hat on:

1. Science is completely agnostic about God. Science doesn't know what God is. He/she/it cannot be put into a test-tube. Cannot be measured. Cannot even be shown to exist. Science doesn't really exclude God, it has no need of such a concept. Science works with measurables and with facts. Science is actually doing a damn good job at working out how the universe works. Considering the vast progress made over the last hundred years I can't help wondering what our state of knowledge will be in a thousand years time. So the bottom line is God is just not relevant to a scientists understanding of how the universe works, how it being into being, how it has evolved, how life has evolved etc.

2. Putting on my spiritual hat:
I've always wanted to understand the universe, why I'm here, what is life all about etc. Is there something called God? I've reached the conclusion that if there is such a thing as God it is not anything like the God of the bible, koran etc. Frankly they just seem like divine dictators. I think those books are a mix of legend, myth and stories, nothing more. Of more interest to me is consciousness itself. While science can measure the electrical activity in my brain it cannot grasp the nature of consciousness itself. I know that ultimately this is directly attributable to neural activity, but there is something deeper there. Not a soul though. When this body dies this is the end of TallyMan. Hmmm. I'm stuck for words that would make any sense other than to a few people. Moog would possibly understand me but I don't think anyone else would unless they've studied Eastern philosophy.

Yes, and I learned about that here ...

"If he is sincerely interested and wants to see you again, ask him to read this book in the interval. After doing that, he must decide for himself whether he wants to go on. He should not be pushed or prodded by you, his wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire must come from within.
"If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that."
("A.A.", the book, page 95)

Try being a Muslim on this site, and see what response your religion gets...