Does space matter to you?

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dionysian
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21 May 2011, 11:53 am

MDD123 wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

I think maybe we should focus effort and monetary allocation to the fact that the majority of people live in abject misery and die of easily-preventable illnesses before we start engaging in mouth-breathing Trekkie orgasmia.

Even though there are other people in these same regions who are perfectly capable of taking care of these problems?

We've got plenty of people that fit the bill right here in the USA. But ignoring that, how far away do we have to get for human suffering to not be our concern? There are a lot of places out there that simply do lack the resources and ability to care for their own people or their neighbors.

ruveyn
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21 May 2011, 1:20 pm

dionysian wrote:

MDD123 wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Even though there are other people in these same regions who are perfectly capable of taking care of these problems?

The suffering of the poor miserable folk is not the business of government. Government exists to protect the rights, lives and property of its citizens. It does not exist to heal their ills or make them Better People.

The "bully pulpit" view of government is false and rather dangerous.

ruveyn

iamnotaparakeet
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21 May 2011, 1:24 pm

ruveyn wrote:

dionysian wrote:

MDD123 wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Even though there are other people in these same regions who are perfectly capable of taking care of these problems?

Actually, it seems more like the government exists to better itself and itself alone, and even that it doesn't do a good job at.

ruveyn
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21 May 2011, 1:42 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Actually, it seems more like the government exists to better itself and itself alone, and even that it doesn't do a good job at.

A "more and better" government is a more repressive agent of tyranny.

ruveyn

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21 May 2011, 2:38 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

It wouldn't take as much money as many think to provide basic life services to many of the people of the world. However, there are far more valid complaints that could be made against other industries that aren't working towards to the future of the Human race, or consist of some of the brightest minds on this planet to accomplish their goals. The technological benefits of space exploration and development are worth it. And could even help some of these people living in abject misery down the line.
Are you not aware that the Space industry is but a fraction of the value of the global pharmaceutical/medical industry anyways? Go bark up their tree, instead of making erroneous complaints against an industry that is doing precisely what it is purposed for. Why not complain about the parasitic fashion industry, or the utterly useless phenomenon of major league sports, instead?

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Vigilans
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21 May 2011, 3:10 pm

PS. Please don't hurt me, Bethie

:lol:

Master_Pedant
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21 May 2011, 3:15 pm

ruveyn wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Does the development of a self-sustaining space industry matter to you (and by this I mean, do you consider it important whether personally affected or not)?

For me, I consider the development of a self-sustaining space industry to be highly important. Whether or not we run out of fuels or resources any time soon, thanks to environmentalists we're going to act like it anyway. Having an economy in space, with torus type agricultural stations, colonies in space, colonies on the moon, colonies on Mars and the moons of the gas giants, people would eventually have more places to go in addition to other cities or countries on Earth. If the space industry is not developed though, we're going to be stuck with the environmentalists and their demands for population reduction (as per the textbook Sustaining The Earth in its first chapter) and other such junk reminiscent of Thomas Malthus. Space is cool in and of itself, and to use that vast volume and the resources within it is something that I think we ought to do.

If space projects are profitable, there will be development.

As long as the Government is involved they will mostly go nowhere.

ruveyn

What patent nonsense. It was a GOVERNMENT OWNED Space Program that got humans to the moon. Furthermore, in most risky situations under with an uncertain return on investment, it's ONLY government willing to upfront the cash for the neccessary R&D.

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21 May 2011, 3:17 pm

Vigilans wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

THE NHL IS NOT PARASTIC .... if and only if they come back to Winnipeg.

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21 May 2011, 3:37 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

THE NHL IS NOT PARASTIC .... if and only if they come back to Winnipeg.

I'm a Habs fan myself
I would like it if Winnipeg got a team again. Same goes for Quebec City. I have a Quebec Nordiques jersey buried somewhere

Sand
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21 May 2011, 6:25 pm

There are all sorts of governments. Some are overwhelmingly awful and some do a reasonably good job. To condemn them all is about as reasonable as condemning all businesses which have equal variability. Humanity cannot get by without government and individual enterprise is equally difficult to handle properly. Each business is, in effect, a small local government controlled by the owner or manager and its interests are in general not the interests of anybody but the owner or manager and anybody even vaguely familiar with the histories of corporations is well aware of the horrors that they have caused. And governments, equally, are very blemished as well. Fundamentally the problem lies with human psychology which is very flawed.

ruveyn
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21 May 2011, 8:04 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Big deal. We went to the Moon to prove we have bigger genitals than the Russians. And what came of the Moon project. 24 billion 1960 dollars for basically nothing. No habitats on the moon. No exploitation of Moon resources etc etc. In other words, it was a show project having no sound economic use.

ruveyn

Sand
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21 May 2011, 8:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

It was a project that allocated funds that implemented a good deal of expertise in missile technology and satellite expertise which is intimately embedded in much of the success of communications and and other basic fields which provide much of the foundation of the modern world. For an engineer like ruveyn to downgrade it indicates something fundamentally lacking in his thinking.

ruveyn
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21 May 2011, 10:24 pm

Sand wrote:

The failure to follow up the lines of technology developed made it a failure.

It was like to Viking voyages to North America. Nothing came of them.

The voyages that counted were done by the English, the Spanish, the Portugese and the Dutch. They came to North America and they stayed and built something new.

ruveyn

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21 May 2011, 10:30 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Uh, as Sand said, it was kinda important for much of modern communications technology. Regardless, given Government developed much of the technology to get to the moon already, why haven't private companies found ingenious ways to exploit it's minerals? Even with the massive privatizations and deregulation of the late 1970s onward (which beats the whole "crowding out" argument), the best Private companies have done is put people in orbit around Earth (while not small feat, certainly not equivalent to a moon landing, much less your sought after lunar mining).

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21 May 2011, 10:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

Said voyages were also financed by the governments of the day.

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ruveyn
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21 May 2011, 10:40 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Said voyages were also financed by the governments of the day.

Weren't they ever.

It would be much better if NASA stuck to unmanned missions. The telescopes and communication satellites have been much more useful. GPS was one of the better projects undertaken. GPS has totally revolutionized navigation and warfare on Earth. Dollar for dollar the outlays for the unmanned programs have produced more science and technology than all the manned efforts. Until we get better propulsion technology, the manned programs are a waste of money.

And if we have to go to another world, it is much better to aim for the Moon. At least we can build observatories on the Dark Side in much greater numbers than we can launch from Earth. Also the Moon is the obvious place to build very large space vessels once we get decent propulsion systems.

Going to Mars is just another "stunt" and will not produce decent science or technology. We should put off going to Mars until we have proper propulsion. The burn and coast approach is a looser.

ruveyn

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