Draw up a list of perversions caused by religion:

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pandabear
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21 May 2011, 5:38 pm

leejosepho
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21 May 2011, 11:44 pm

ruveyn wrote:

MasterJedi wrote:

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.... Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.--Ephesians 5:23-24

Written by that goniff Paul.

Quote:

goniff - (Yiddish) a thief or dishonest person or scoundrel (often used as a general term of abuse)
- ganef, ganof, gonif
offender, wrongdoer - a person who transgresses moral or civil law

(Yiddish - a dialect of High German including some Hebrew and other words; spoken in Europe as a vernacular by many Jews;
written in the Hebrew script)

(Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.)

Nah ...

Quote:

"... our beloved brother Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, (and) which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures."
(2 Peter 3:15-16)

So then ...

Quote:

Nothing but willing "submission" is ever rightly expected there.

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LKL
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22 May 2011, 1:14 am

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

Nothing but willing "submission" is ever rightly expected there.

So it's ok for a husband to treat his wife like a doormat, as long as she lays down herself rather than being forced there?

something I didn't notice mentioned yet: the dozens or hundreds of children killed or maimed around the world by parents who believe that 'god will cure them' and thus withhold medical attention.
http://whatstheharm.net/christianscience.html
http://whatstheharm.net/religiousfundamentalism.html
see also:
http://whatstheharm.net/jehovahswitnesses.html
http://whatstheharm.net/breatharianism.html
http://whatstheharm.net/cults.html
http://whatstheharm.net/scientology.html

leejosepho
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22 May 2011, 1:38 am

LKL wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

Nothing but willing "submission" is ever rightly expected there.

So it's ok for a husband to treat his wife like a doormat, as long as she lays down herself rather than being forced there?

Maybe you missed what I had said:

Nothing but willing "submission" is ever rightly expected there. (second italic added)

Yes, there are men who do use that Scripture to abuse their very one wives and families, but that is not the fault of what had first been written.

Note: Our next step in this discussion will be to gain a Scriptural comprehension of "submission".

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Last edited by leejosepho on 22 May 2011, 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

dionysian
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22 May 2011, 1:40 am

leejosepho wrote:

LKL wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

Nothing but willing "submission" is ever rightly expected there.

So it's ok for a husband to treat his wife like a doormat, as long as she lays down herself rather than being forced there?

Maybe you missed what I had said:

Nothing but willing "submission" is ever rightly expected there. (second italic added)

Yes, there are men who do use that Scripture to abuse their very one wives and families, but that is not the fault of what had first been written.

I think the question is why submission should be expected in the first place? A husband isn't an authority figure, he's a companion.

leejosepho
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22 May 2011, 1:45 am

dionysian wrote:

I think the question is why submission should be expected in the first place? A husband isn't an authority figure, he's a companion.

No, that is the next argument, but that is fine ...

... and we might have been there already if I had been a little quicker in adding this edit just above:

Quote:

Note: Our next step in this discussion will be to gain a Scriptural comprehension of "submission".

Back in a few minutes ...

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leejosepho
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22 May 2011, 1:53 am

dionysian wrote:

A husband isn't an authority figure ...

Please tell me where you might seem to see "authority figure" in this ...

Quote:

... Christ is the head of the church.... the church is subject unto Christ ...

dionysian wrote:

A husband is ... a companion.

Please tell me where you might seem to see any conflict between that and this ...

Quote:

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91
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22 May 2011, 3:47 am

MasterJedi wrote:

The word in the original text... the one that sets some people off is translated as 'head' which is sort of correct. The actual word is 'kephalē', which does denote a superior rank. There is controversy over this, some of people have challenged the definition, attempting to make it less authoritative, but, having seen both arguments, I think they are wrong in their translation. Women, in the marriage have a different role to men. This seems to be enough for some people to start shooting off fireworks and declaring Paul to be this or that. So Paul's requirement that both submit to one another and the man is to be the suffering servant of a woman (hence his use of the statement 'as Christ') is kind of lost on them. To those people, they have already seen enough, the Bible must be oppressive of women. Forget the fact that to be 'as Christ' is pretty much the hardest thing in to do, forget the fact that man is required to give himself up in and die for her if necessary. They have already seen enough.

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leejosepho
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22 May 2011, 6:51 am

91 wrote:

MasterJedi wrote:

... Women, in the marriage have a different role to men. This seems to be enough for some people to start shooting off fireworks and declaring Paul to be this or that. So Paul's requirement that both submit to one another and the man is to be the suffering servant of a woman (hence his use of the statement 'as Christ') is kind of lost on them ...

Yes, and some people even "go off" on the idea of differing roles for husbands and wives.

My wife and I live in complete submission to each other within our respective roles ...

Quote:

Submission, n. [L. submissio, from submitto.] (Webster, 1869)

1. The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; surrender of the person and power to the control or government of another.

2. Acknowledgment of ... dependence; humble or suppliant behavior.

3. Acknowledgment of a fault; confession or error.

4. Obedience; compliance with the commands or laws of a superior.

5. Resignation; a yielding of one's will to the will or appointment of a superior without murmuring.
e.g. Entire and cheerful submission to the will of God is a duty of prime excellence.

So then, I do whatever I must to provide a safe and secure domicile for my wife "within my own home" where I "serve" as "head of house", and she simultaneously does her own part as "steward of the house" (Proverbs 31), and as well-described in these very words of her own:

"You make the living, and I make the living worthwhile."

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Sand
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22 May 2011, 7:17 am

There seems to be some difficulty with the word "submission".

From Merriam-Webster

Definition of SUBMISSION
1
a : a legal agreement to submit to the decision of arbitrators b : an act of submitting something (as for consideration or inspection); also : something submitted (as a manuscript)
2
: the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant
3
: an act of submitting to the authority or control of another
See submission defined for English-language learners »

puddingmouse
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22 May 2011, 7:17 am

91 wrote:

forget the fact that man is required to give himself up in and die for her if necessary.

And that would be necessary in a lot of relationships then?

Paul was writing from a the perspective of the times. The idea of a woman having to 'submit' to her husband, however you define the word submission, seems strange now.

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ruveyn
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22 May 2011, 7:24 am

puddingmouse wrote:

91 wrote:

forget the fact that man is required to give himself up in and die for her if necessary.

Paul was a gonif (crook) then and would be a gonif now if we were still alive.

ruveyn

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22 May 2011, 7:27 am

ruveyn wrote:

Paul was a gonif (crook) then and would be a gonif now if we were still alive.

ruveyn

True, but not as much of a gonif as Muhammad.

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ruveyn
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22 May 2011, 7:28 am

puddingmouse wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Paul was a gonif (crook) then and would be a gonif now if we were still alive.

ruveyn

True, but not as much of a gonif as Muhammad.

Mohamed was a pedophile.

ruveyn

puddingmouse
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22 May 2011, 7:29 am

ruveyn wrote:

Mohamed was a pedophile.

ruveyn

Amongst other things...

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91
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22 May 2011, 7:38 am

puddingmouse wrote:

91 wrote:

forget the fact that man is required to give himself up in and die for her if necessary.

And that would be necessary in a lot of relationships then?

If husbands were committed to their wives, to that extent, then the world would be a better place.

puddingmouse wrote:

Paul was writing from a the perspective of the times. The idea of a woman having to 'submit' to her husband, however you define the word submission, seems strange now.

The woman is not called to 'submit' (see below)to the husband without the husband being expected to do the exact same thing. It does say that wives should subject themselves to their husbands in Ep 5:22. However, anyone claiming that this is a one way street is making an unfounded assertion because in the previous sentence (Ep 5:21) Paul writes that both are required to submit to one another. To suggest otherwise would be to remove all context from the quote. I would however, agree that both parties submitting to one another does seem strange to modern ears... that does not make what Paul is saying untrue, it just means that our generation is extremely sensitive to language that does not acknowledge an absolutist primacy of the individual.

It is also worth noting that the word 'submission' is not really a great translation. The Greek word is 'upotassomenoi' which translates directly as 'give alliance to'. Think more of a medieval knight swearing allegiance to his king (it does not imply master/slave). In Paul's view, both swear allegiance to one another, a radical command considering Paul was living in an empire where women could not necessarily own property in their own name.

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Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Last edited by 91 on 22 May 2011, 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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