Hey KXMode

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Class, this is NOT how you present an argument. Notice the following statement. See any weasel words? See anything that begs questions? See any

Here, you see the respondent stating how their religion admits when they're wrong, unlike many other religious organizations.

The question that's begged is "How does the respondent know about other religious organizations, especially when JWs are told not to associate with outsiders or read material from other churches?" Another question that's begged is "Is there proof that the JWs have rescinded their policies whenever they were in conflict with the bible?"

The first question has a falsifiable answer, which is "Most JWs truly do not know what goes on in other churches because the average, born in witness simply isn't exposed to other religions on an in depth basis other than what they read about other religions in the Watchtower and Awake magazines and are discouraged from actually studying with the other religions. If they study with the other religions and people in the JW church find out about the covert bible/religious study, the student is excommunicated from the witness church and loses contact with their friends, family, and sometimes business contacts."

The second answer is a bit less falsifiable. The bible by its nature is a very esoteric book filled with conflicts. It's because the bible is an anthology of books written by many different people, all who lived about 3,000 years apart from each other, not a monolithic book which claims to be inspired a la the Quaran or the Book of Mormon. Not to mention, all the books of the Bible were written in languages which are either extinct or unrecognizable from their modern counterparts. The anthology wasn't even codified until the Nicene and Hippo councils in the 300s AD. Much of the moral conflicts the bible dealt with were contemporary to ancient, pre-Christian peoples and not to modern peoples, so of course there will be much debate on theology. Much debate about theology still exists with Christians to this day. That's why we have so many denominations of Christianity. One person thinks god saves through .



Another question is begged: "Whose morals do the WT society stick to" and "Are some of the moral codes enforced if they've proven to be a detriment to the average JW"?

Answer to the first question is very subjective because morality itself very subjective and varies. That's why society has codified laws instead of depending on social mores and rules to rule it, since social mores and rules vary while universal social laws do not. JWs have strict social mores, which is very dangerous to a person's liberties and personhood since the mores can change at the whim of emotion and a person, especially in the JW religion, can become an "Un-Person" rather quickly.

The second answer to the first question that's begged is a set in stone; it's a definite "Yes". There have been many children that died because of the JW stance on not getting blood transfusions and there are a lot of JWs that have been abused and disfellowshipped for bringing the abuse cases to the police, since the JWs have an unwritten rule about not "snitching" on other JWs. (Again, I used to be a JW so don't tell me the rule doesn't exist).

Back to KXMode. Dude, why are you being so evasive? You were asked a simple question about your thoughts about the people in this video and instead of giving your thoughts, you claimed I was "persecuting you" or some other woe is me evasive victimhood claim that you always do whenever somebody asks you a critical question. Again, it's alright not to answer, but don't think we on the board think you're not being evasive.

Again I ask: what are your feelings on the people in this video. You're free to say "No, I didn't watch the video" or "I decline to comment one way or another".

Last edited by HereComesTheRain on 18 Jul 2011, 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

By raising these questions in an open forum, we bring the issues to those people that can answer them, if only for themselves. This is because an open forum is inherently public, and the public deserves to know what questions are being asked and that those questions are being evaded.

Then the real question becomes "Why?", especially for those who take note of the false martyrdom, the hypocrisy, and the personal attacks made by while evading the questions.

The people will notice, and make their own determinations of their own free will, which is anathema to religious cult leaders.

Have a nice day!

^^ I agree entirely.

I am disgusted by behaviour that attempts to dress up bullying in the clothing of reason.

I am not a believer, but I recognize that many people are, and many people find faith to be a valuable moral compass by which to lead their own lives. Any organized group that teaches its followers, "that which is hateful to you do not do to others," is presenting a pretty good rule to live by.

I do not share kxmde's beliefs, and I have taken him to task when he has presumed to question the sufficiency of others' faith. But that is no excuse for turning about and bullying him about his faith. It is shameful behaviour.

The bully who happens to be right is, nonetheless, a bully.

The sound of one hand clapping - bis.

There is no bullying taking place, only questions and challenges.

Among other things, a bully is one who...

... Tells you to say good-bye to your current friends who do not share the bully's beliefs, and that anyone who tries to convince you that the bullies are wrong is unfit for your friendship and association.

... Tells you to stop celebrating the holidays and celebrations that allow you to get together with your family and other loved ones (especially those who do not follow the bullies' teachings). You will no longer be able to give your mother a hug and say, "Happy Mother's Day". You can no longer share in the excitement of Christmas / Hanukkah / Kwanzaa / Solstice morning. You can no longer give or receive birthday presents.

... Tells you that only the elite class of 144,000 other bullies may celebrate anything at all, and that you are not one of the elite.

... Tells you that you that Heaven itself is reserved for only the 144,000 bullies.

... Tells you that you must refuse life-saving blood transfusions. If your children need a transfusion, you must let them die without it. You will be compelled to defend this doctrine, even if it means that you lose your freedom ... or your life.

... Tells you to forgo a college education for yourself and your children, as a college education as unnecessary since Armageddon is "just around the corner". In fact, you will be discouraged from getting any type of extended education, unless it comes directly from the bullies or their representatives.

... Tells you that you are forbidden to vote or hold political office.

... Tells you that you must surrender no less than 10% of all of your income to the bully and the bully's organization.

I almost forgot the most essential behavioral characteristic of a bully: He or she will threaten you with Dire Consequences if you do not do exactly whatever the bully tells you to do.

Now, which is worse: (1) Questioning and challenging what bullies try to shove down your throat, or (2) whatever the bullies are trying to force you to believe?

Your saying it does not make it so. You are hardly in a position to judge your own behaviour. While you may not have the intent to bully, there is no question in my mind--looking from the outside--that your "questions and challenges" are, in fact, bullying.



Both are equally shameful. You do not get to justify your bullying on the back of someone else's behaviour--even that of your victim.

Adopt a more respectful tone, and perhaps an adult conversation can take place.

[quote="Fnord"]There is no bullying taking place, only questions and challenges.

Among other things, a bully is one who...
/quote]

Allowing that you have some issues with the Shuhada', and allowing that I cannot imagine under any circumstances enrolling myself in any organization with such a structure, let alone theology, I must still ask:

If kxmode chose [we need not calculate the probability] could he walk out without loss or penalty?

If I am put in prison and forced to do things I do not feel like doing, there is, I think we may say, bullying.

If I enlist in the army and am forced to do things I do not feel like doing, there is probably bullying.

If I sam hired by a company and am forced to do things I do not feel like doing [on pain of losing my job], there is probably bullying.

But if I can walk out of a church and never come back [is that possible for kxmode] with no coinsequences except what is between me and God [which I have to deal with anyhow] - then the bullying is not that bad.

In fairness to fnord, I don't think that, "If you don't like it you can leave," is a mitigating circumstance for bullying.

You seem to think that questioning and challenging what bullies try to shove down your throat is "shameful".

You seem to think that I've been less than "respectful". Taken these together, you seem to believe that being submissive to bullies without question or challenge is the only proper thing to do. Is this true?

That's just the way he is - contentious to a fault, especially where my posts are concerned.

bully - 1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, esp. to a smaller or weaker person. 2. A hired thug
American Heritage College Dictionary - 4th ed.

I'm not sure how I fit this definition. I don't believe I've bullied anyone. Allow me to make a few things clear:

...I have not said goodbye to any friends or family since I acquired my faith. Many of my family were afraid this would happen, but it did not. They thought I was joining a cult that would keep me away from them, and that is simply not true. Now, if you know any JWs who have done just that, that was personal choice. They were not told to do so by anyone who knew what they were talking about.

...I have stopped celebrating holidays for personal reasons. This was difficult at first, as I missed my family and they missed me during those times. However, they understood that I was firm about it. I now enjoy their company throughout the year. And, though it's no one here's business, I hugged my mother last week. And she identifies as Baptist.

...I am not, let me repeat, not one of the 144,000. I am not going to heaven, nor do I wish too. I look forward to a paradise on Earth, as God intended. I have met a few members of this "elite class" and calling them bullies is degrading to anyone who has ever actually been bullied.

...I hold a B.S. from a major university, which I acquired after my baptism. No one ever told me I couldn't go to college. I don't recommend it for everyone, however. College is not for everyone.

...I am not forbidden to take blood transfusions, vote, or hold office. I choose not to. Anyone who tries to force me to do any of these would fit one of the above definitions of a bully.

...Jehovah's Witnesses do no tithe. We give voluntary donations that may be more or less than 10% or our income. Sometimes, I can't afford to give anything at all. Anyone who forced me to do so would be a bully and a thief.

...I do not threaten anyone with consequences if they don't do as I say. I judge no one. Only God judges.

Furthermore, answers to the ten questions posed to me are forthcoming. I will not say I have all the answers, but I can certainly do research. I can answer question 8 right now, however. I only know kxmode through this forum. We've never even directly addressed each other until last night. All I know about him is he professes to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses and he appears legit. I mean his rhetoric, not any secret handshake

I must say, though, I find it odd that the question of how I know kxmode even came up, especially since I said in my last post that I don't know him outside this forum. What does that have to do with anything?

Perfectly true. I spoke loosely, partly as to Fnord, partly because it has been a very hoit and complex day.

Instead of using the B word, I should have worked more directly at contrasting the "nobody gets out" style cult with the open door variety.

I should rather have been querying whether initiation into a prestigious fraternity, or Basic Training in the military, technically and necessarily count as bullying.

Admittedly, there are those with a sadistic streak who get into hazing and laps and all. But the types of things Fnord is pointing at are not - so far I know - distributed to individuals but are part of the price anybody in an organization or working toward a goal - in this case survival.

You're trying to dress your behaviour up in the cloth of reason, and I, for one, don't buy it. It is possible to question and challenge without being rude and offensive. Try that on for size.



First things first. There is no "seem" about it. I am stating, in words of one syllable, that you are rude. There is no implication. There is no, "seems," about it.

Second, I have never advocated being submissive. My first post began with the statement that when kxmode has been disrespectful of other people's faith, I have called him out on it. But I hope that I have done so in a way that is respectful to the fact of his faith. You have made no such effort.



Perhaps he is. And you can certainly take that matter up with him. But that is not relevant to the issue of your behaviour towards kxmode.

Why is everyone attacking me?

Forgiving folk for perceived injustices against oneself is hardly a religious act, it is not even necessarily a charitable act as often it could be construed as a self centred action IE forgiving is a great pschologcal tool to help the 'victim' deal with the perceived injustice.

Your informing the person of your forgiving nature tends to suggest someone who is seeking recognition for their (perceived) magnanimity, kinda sad really.

Because you have an agenda to 'save' people when most here do not believe one iota of what you are trying to save us from. I assume you fully believe that you are trying to be helpful and you fully believe in god and what you preach, your failure is in not recognising that a complete lack of theistic/deistic ect belief means just that. Go save those that for some reason known only to them require it.


For me I have finally convinced my family that my I am serious in my desire for my lifeless body to be left out in the rubbish bin ( of course this wont happen, but at least they realise I am not joking), you need to realise that no amount of scripture hurling will convince me that when I die I will survive my death in any way other than adding molecules into the ground and air.