Youth camp shootings follow Oslo explosion

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DW_a_mom
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23 Jul 2011, 2:42 pm

qvasi wrote:

I personally think (as most Norwegians) feel death penalty is inhumane and immoral as it's illogical to kill someone if we think killing is wrong (and if someone is incorrectly found guilty, killing them makes the incorrect judgement horribly worse). For a spree killer, I think letting them die or killing them is too kind, a quick and easy way out (especially as spree killers often kill themself anyway), while indefinite containment is much more of a punishment, because they have to live with what they have done. And even if he cannot feel any regret, having him locked up and kept from doing anyone more harm is what a civilized society should do.

This is closer to my own philosophy on the subject than what you'll hear from most of the people who live in my country. I believe a death penalty is morally wrong, although I am very much for life imprisonment when appropriate to the crime.

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qvasi
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23 Jul 2011, 2:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:

What is this about teens. I am sure anyone would be upset to see a friend or acquaintance killed regardless of age.

ruveyn

My point wasn't really their age, but how they were killed....

I think the reason most people find it more shocking when young people rather than older people is killed (not when they personally know them, though) is that it's shortening their lifespan by more years. This is especially true for more "natural" deaths such as illness or normal accidents; when it's murder I guess people find it very bad even if the one killed were old and figuratively almost "on their death bed".

I personally think the abuse of symbols of peace (such as police uniforms, red cross symbols, etc.) for covert war or terror purposes is worse than the murders itself (not that murder aren't bad). Because such abuse does not just hurt the direct victims, but also damages the authority and legitimacy of the symbols themselves, and thus may hurt others later (by causing people not to trust/respect the symbols later, causing further casualties).

On a related note I find it just as bad or worse when historical culture artifacts is destroyed in a war (such as destruction of national librarys, ancient temples etc), as when people are killed in war, because destroying evidences history not only hurt the people of a few generations but every generation later. (I wonder if these value judgements are common, or if this is an aspie/non-neurotypical, thing?)

ruveyn
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23 Jul 2011, 3:16 pm

qvasi wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

What is this about teens. I am sure anyone would be upset to see a friend or acquaintance killed regardless of age.

ruveyn

My point wasn't really their age, but how they were killed....

Then why did you bring up age?

ruveyn

Tequila
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23 Jul 2011, 3:32 pm

simon_says wrote:

Police now describing goofus as a "fundamentalist christian", in addition to his other labels.

There really is no evidence of this in anything he's written that I've seen. Lots of people read anti-Islam websites, lots of people even vote for the 'protest parties' in Europe, lots of people oppose their towns - or areas of towns - being overrun by African immigrants. They don't all go out and kill ninety+ people.

Just as very few Muslims decide to take a weapon to BNP meetings and open fire on the attendees because they were assaulted by racist thugs.

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23 Jul 2011, 3:33 pm

i wrote teens because it was mostly teens on the island, nothing else.
of course it will be horrible to anyone, regardless of age.

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Tequila
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23 Jul 2011, 3:36 pm

[quote="Oodain"]im with you on that one, i cant imagine how horrifying it must have been for some of the teens forced to watch heir friends get killed./quote]

I think, as well as that, you'd have to have something seriously wrong going on in your head to calmly walk about a small island, killing defenceless and petrified people desperate to flee you, again and again. Up close. You could perhaps sort of understand - but never endorse - someone who flips and kills someone in a rage, or even a few people, but to cause the deaths of 90+ people by cold-bloodedly murdering them? Nah.

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23 Jul 2011, 3:41 pm

anna-banana wrote:

just check this out: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -jail.html

Heh. It's the Daily Mail; indignant outrage is what they do.
But right at the end of the article it says "In Norway only 20 per cent of prisoners end up back in jail after release, compared to between 50 and 60 per cent in the UK."
So yeah; obviously treating prisoners like human beings is a waste of time.

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anna-banana
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23 Jul 2011, 3:43 pm

Cornflake wrote:

anna-banana wrote:

just check this out: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -jail.html

I only meant this particular future prisoner, Cornflake :wink:

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simon_says
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23 Jul 2011, 3:44 pm

His 12 minute youtube manifesto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw

The Marxists sold Europe out to Muslims. Now he wants a war. "Before we start our Crusade we must destroy cultural marxism". Encourages cultural conservatives to follow his example. Also seems to think he's a modern form of medieval knight.

Tequila
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23 Jul 2011, 3:45 pm

Cornflake wrote:

So yeah; obviously treating prisoners like human beings is a waste of time.

With a lot of offenders you can't rehabilitate them, and by letting them out again and again you're allowing predators the chance to claim more victims. In those instances, you throw away the key.

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23 Jul 2011, 4:10 pm

The police uniform thing is particularly ugly; especially someplace like Norway where the thought that an authority figure might not be who they claim to be is likely pretty foreign. Here in the states, people masquerading as police are relatively rare but not unheard of, to the point that there are chain emails circulating describing how to confirm that a cop is a cop. One of the few benefits of living in a more cynical society I suppose.

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anna-banana
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23 Jul 2011, 4:16 pm

simon_says wrote:

wow. it got removed from youtube right after I watched it.

this guy knows his history and is clearly very intelligent. he has no wisdom nor knowledge of human nature though. that's a very dangerous mix.

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AceOfSpades
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23 Jul 2011, 4:16 pm

donnie_darko wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

What happened on that island sounds horrifying, like straight out of a horror movie. Hopefully the perpetrator(s) are put to death.

Horrible yes, but what will putting him to death accomplish?

What will leaving him to rot accomplish? A higher body count? Deeper ties?

Tequila
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23 Jul 2011, 4:19 pm

Dox47 wrote:

The police uniform thing is particularly ugly; especially someplace like Norway where the thought that an authority figure might not be who they claim to be is likely pretty foreign.

Especially in the more rural parts of Norway. I've been to some of the Nordic countries and I get the impression that, outside of the cities, people are very sedate and perhaps even bored with not a lot to do.

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23 Jul 2011, 4:21 pm

anna-banana wrote:

this guy knows his history and is clearly very intelligent. he has no wisdom nor knowledge of human nature though. that's a very dangerous mix.

That's the thing. There's no thought of what will happen after he's committed his rampage to any cause he "supports". I mean, I'm anti-mass immigration but the vast majority of people would never consider doing something like this.

simon_says
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23 Jul 2011, 4:24 pm

Quote:

There really is no evidence of this in anything he's written that I've seen.

They say he visited and posted on fundamentalist christian sites, among others. It's not the primary motive, just part of his psychology.

He did close his video manifesto with "Onward Christian Soldiers" and imagery of and references to the Knights Templar were sprinkled throughout. I d/l'd his written manifest but have not read it yet.

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