Is Canada the perfect place for aspies?
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Thank you for proving Raptor's and my point. The definition is subjective and therefore can be defined as anything that those in power don't agree with.
Your argument worth the bandwidth it took to upload it.
Find me any definition in law that is not subjective. Anything at all. Find me a single clause of legislation that has a completely clear and unambiguous meaning. Or even a single word that is not open to any reasonable argument about its meaning.
You cannot do it.
Your nation is founded, in part, on the principle that courts have the jurisdiction to interpret the law. The subjective meaning of all legislation, contract and jurisprudence has been implicitly acknowledged from long before pen was put to paper on your Declaration of Independence and your Constitution. The issue is not that people in power get to decide--thus it has ever been. The issue is how those decisions get made.
It is utterly foolish to argue against a legislative prohibition on the basis that courts can interpret that prohibition. Were that an argument that had any merit whatsoever, then there would be no place for legislation of any kind. Law could not exist in an environment in which interpretation was not possible. What separates nations like yours and mine from tyrrany is that we have fair and open fora in which the interpretation of law is an adversarial process in which both sides can participate, and out of which an open and public decision emerges.
Not that laws aren't subjective but the orig argument was that the law in question can easily be interpreted as a hate speech law whcih you said it was not.
The argument for that still stands.
visagrunt wrote:
What separates nations like yours and mine from tyrrany is that we have fair and open fora in which the interpretation of law is an adversarial process in which both sides can participate, and out of which an open and public decision emerges.
Well we don't have an open fora once hate speach laws are in place In this case the process of "both sides participating" might, itself, lead to these sides syaing things that are interpretted as "hate speach". Thats one thing that sets this apart from other laws. Other laws are also open to inteprretation, but they are about DOING, not saying. Hence in case of these laws talking about things in court won't put you in trouble for more violations.
Raptor wrote:
Not that laws aren't subjective but the orig argument was that the law in question can easily be interpreted as a hate speech law whcih you said it was not.
The argument for that still stands.
The argument for that still stands.
It is not a hate speech law, because the requires elements beyond speech.
_________________
--James
ValentineWiggin wrote:
I didn't know part of being Aspie entailed being an anti-free speech rapist.
mmmm yeah. nor are Canadians such, as a whole.
OP, i am not sure what you think the Canadian laws on statutory rape are. the age of consent is 16 in general.
for people of similar age the age of consent is varies. at age 14 or 15 there is a <5 year age window that is acceptable, and at age 12 or 13 there is a <2 year age window:
Age of Consent to Sexual Activity wrote:
For example, a 14 or 15 year old can consent to sexual activity with a partner as long as the partner is less than five years older and there is no relationship of trust, authority or dependency or any other exploitation of the young person. This means that if the partner is 5 years or older than the 14 or 15 year old, any sexual activity will be considered a criminal offence unless it occurs after they are married to each other (in accordance with the "solemnization" of marriage requirements that are established in each province and territory, governing how and when a marriage can be performed, including the minimum age at which someone may marry).
There is also a "close-in-age" exception for 12 and 13 year olds: a 12 or 13 year old can consent to sexual activity with another young person who is less than two years older and with whom there is no relationship of trust, authority or dependency or other exploitation of the young person.
There is also a "close-in-age" exception for 12 and 13 year olds: a 12 or 13 year old can consent to sexual activity with another young person who is less than two years older and with whom there is no relationship of trust, authority or dependency or other exploitation of the young person.
HOWEVER, in certain circumstances the age of consent is 18. it is open to interpretation so that individuals who (for example) prey on youngters on the internet can be prosecuted:
Age of Consent to Sexual Activity wrote:
However, the age of consent is 18 years where the sexual activity "exploits" the young person -- when it involves prostitution, pornography or occurs in a relationship of authority, trust or dependency (e.g., with a teacher, coach or babysitter). Sexual activity can also be considered exploitative based on the nature and circumstances of the relationship, e.g., the young person's age, the age difference between the young person and their partner, how the relationship developed (quickly, secretly, or over the Internet) and how the partner may have controlled or influenced the young person.
source: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/dept-min/clp/faq.html
not sure what this has to do with aspies though. why would aspies be more likely to want to have sex with minors?
***
Hate propaganda is covered under the Criminal Code. we also do have laws against hate speech, in the Canadian Human Rights Act, which covers federal matters. there are similar Human Rights Commissions in each province and territory, though they mainly deal with matters of discrimination.
the Canadian Human Rights Act even has a section that covers hate speech on the intrenet:
What is section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act? wrote:
With the advent of the Internet, the question arose as to whether information posted on a website could constitute hate messages under section 13(1). In December 2001, Parliament amended the CHRA by adding section 13(2) which makes it clear that Internet hate messages come under the jurisdiction of the Commission.
...
This principle — another variation of the minority rights principle — seeks to protect visible minorities from any hate on the Internet or in the public communications sphere, which can have the effect, not only of singling them out as targets of hatred, but also as targets of terrorist acts.Thus, our anti-terrorism law includes important provisions that will allow the courts to order the deletion of publicly available hate propaganda from computer systems, such as an Internet site. As well, there are Criminal Code amendments that would create a new offence of mischief motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on religion, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, committed against a place of religious worship or associated religious property.
...
In addition, there are amendments to the Canadian Human Rights Act to make it clear that using telephone Internet or other communication tools for hatred purposes or discrimination is prohibited. This is particularly important in light of the Internet's ability to extend the potential reach of hate messages to millions.
...
This principle — another variation of the minority rights principle — seeks to protect visible minorities from any hate on the Internet or in the public communications sphere, which can have the effect, not only of singling them out as targets of hatred, but also as targets of terrorist acts.Thus, our anti-terrorism law includes important provisions that will allow the courts to order the deletion of publicly available hate propaganda from computer systems, such as an Internet site. As well, there are Criminal Code amendments that would create a new offence of mischief motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on religion, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, committed against a place of religious worship or associated religious property.
...
In addition, there are amendments to the Canadian Human Rights Act to make it clear that using telephone Internet or other communication tools for hatred purposes or discrimination is prohibited. This is particularly important in light of the Internet's ability to extend the potential reach of hate messages to millions.
source: http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/proactive_initi ... 1-eng.aspx
at least in terms of the Act and guidelines, we restrict free speech to a far greater degree than the United States for the purpose of maintaining the rights of those people targeted. Canadian legislators and courts have tended to seek a balance between the protection of freedom of expression under the Charter and the harm caused by hate speech and propaganda:
Is section 13 consistent with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? wrote:
Mr. Justice Russell Juriansz, Ontario Court of Appeal wrote:
It seems fair to say that the American view is becoming a minority one in the world. Canada is part of what appears to be growing global consensus, which observes that careful restrictions of some forms of speech are both desirable and necessary.
In drawing the line between hatred and free expression, the Canadian courts have taken into account other Charter provisions, most importantly section 15, which provides for equality before and under the law and equal benefit and protection of law, and section 27 which provides that: "This Charter shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians.
source: http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/proactive_initi ... ng.aspx#23
some idea here of what is considered hate speech:
What constitutes "hatred or contempt" wrote:
In the Taylor decision, the Supreme Court set out guidelines for determining whether a message was likely to expose a person or persons to hatred or contempt. It adopted the reasoning of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal in Nealy v. Johnston (1989) in which the Tribunal applied the definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary (1971):
"hatred" : active dislike, detestation, enmity, ill-will, malevolence.
"contempt": the condition of being condemned or despised; dishonour or disgrace.
"hatred" : active dislike, detestation, enmity, ill-will, malevolence.
"contempt": the condition of being condemned or despised; dishonour or disgrace.
source: http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/proactive_initi ... ng.aspx#34
the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal acts largely on a complaint basis, so generally a person or group must come forward and make their discomfort known.
***
none of this has anything to do with immigration guidelines. hate speech implies communication of hate, and an immigration decision is not a communication of hate as interpreted by the Act. we do have rules against discrimination, but i believe you must already be Canadian/landed immigrant to be covered by such.
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visagrunt wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Not that laws aren't subjective but the orig argument was that the law in question can easily be interpreted as a hate speech law whcih you said it was not.
The argument for that still stands.
The argument for that still stands.
It is not a hate speech law, because the requires elements beyond speech.
Hate speech, hate crime, hate whatever..........
Maybe I wasn’t clear or detailed enough in the beginning.
A crime (e.g. murder, assault, etc…) should stand on its own merit regardless of whether hate was a motive or not.
Hate is an emotion and therefore not an act.
Raptor wrote:
Hate speech, hate crime, hate whatever..........
Maybe I wasn’t clear or detailed enough in the beginning.
A crime (e.g. murder, assault, etc…) should stand on its own merit regardless of whether hate was a motive or not.
Hate is an emotion and therefore not an act.
Maybe I wasn’t clear or detailed enough in the beginning.
A crime (e.g. murder, assault, etc…) should stand on its own merit regardless of whether hate was a motive or not.
Hate is an emotion and therefore not an act.
Fair enough--but we aren't talking about aggravated sentencing for hate motivated crimes against the person. (I tend to agree with you on that score, I think judges are perfectly capable of examining the motives of a convicted person and taking victim impact into consideration without Parliament telling them so to do.)
We are talking about the wilful promotion of hatred or advocating genocide as offenses in se. Is there currently a crime the compasses gathering a group of like minded people and getting them to torch a synagogue.
The person is not directly guilty of arson--it is the other's who wielded the torches. The person is not guilty of incitement to riot, because the others did not disturb the peace tumultuously (the Canadian definition of "riot.")
It may be that the behavior constitutes "counselling" that makes the person a party to the principal offence. But a successful prosecution for counselling requires that the principal offence have taken place--if the other people don't go and burn down the synagogue, then no offence of counselling is made out.
This is the principal reason, in my view, that a separate offence is required--because inciting people to commit violence is, in and of itself, a culpable act--whether or not those people actual proceed to commit that violent offence.
Without these provisions of the Criminal Code there would be a gap in the protection of public peace and public safety.
_________________
--James
visagrunt wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Hate speech, hate crime, hate whatever..........
Maybe I wasn’t clear or detailed enough in the beginning.
A crime (e.g. murder, assault, etc…) should stand on its own merit regardless of whether hate was a motive or not.
Hate is an emotion and therefore not an act.
Maybe I wasn’t clear or detailed enough in the beginning.
A crime (e.g. murder, assault, etc…) should stand on its own merit regardless of whether hate was a motive or not.
Hate is an emotion and therefore not an act.
Fair enough--but we aren't talking about aggravated sentencing for hate motivated crimes against the person. (I tend to agree with you on that score, I think judges are perfectly capable of examining the motives of a convicted person and taking victim impact into consideration without Parliament telling them so to do.)
We are talking about the wilful promotion of hatred or advocating genocide as offenses in se. Is there currently a crime the compasses gathering a group of like minded people and getting them to torch a synagogue.
The person is not directly guilty of arson--it is the other's who wielded the torches. The person is not guilty of incitement to riot, because the others did not disturb the peace tumultuously (the Canadian definition of "riot.")
It may be that the behavior constitutes "counselling" that makes the person a party to the principal offence. But a successful prosecution for counselling requires that the principal offence have taken place--if the other people don't go and burn down the synagogue, then no offence of counselling is made out.
This is the principal reason, in my view, that a separate offence is required--because inciting people to commit violence is, in and of itself, a culpable act--whether or not those people actual proceed to commit that violent offence.
Without these provisions of the Criminal Code there would be a gap in the protection of public peace and public safety.
In this case, the better course of action is to redefine the terms "counceling" or "incitement to riot" or something else, in such a way that these will include the behavior you described.
The problem with the speach-related laws in Canada as they stand is that they include far wider range of "crimes" than what you described, and most of them don't include incitement to violence. Regardless of whether or not you call these laws a "hate laws", it is a fact that Zundel spent a long time in prison for publishing a book on holocaust revisionism. Now, he didn't actually incite anyone to burn sinagogues in that book. So this is one example of Canada's violating freedom of speach.
I'm in Quebec Province and i go in same way than techstepgenr8tion. Healthcare system have big lack in aspie service. I wait about 4 years before seen by an specialist. Some times later he quit his job don't know if he only do research or just take his pension and i get an new psychiatrist. For get therapy later my mother fight hard to have more than pills
J-P wrote:
I'm in Quebec Province and i go in same way than techstepgenr8tion. Healthcare system have big lack in aspie service. I wait about 4 years before seen by an specialist. Some times later he quit his job don't know if he only do research or just take his pension and i get an new psychiatrist. For get therapy later my mother fight hard to have more than pills
i agree with you on this... i am lucky to have an Autism Society in my city that is supported by donations and volunteers (some paid employess are involved too). but in terms of learning many kinds of skills or getting enough supports, a lot of it is not available. therapy is often expensive, except for emergency distress lines and things like that.
there is a job placement agency for people with special needs in my city, but it is only for people under 30. and they will only help people for a very short period of time. so people have trouble getting and keeping jobs.
plus, it is almost impossible to get a formal diagnosis in adulthood without paying out of pocket too.
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