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Thou shall not suffer a witch to live.

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Kraichgauer
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16 Sep 2011, 5:32 pm

Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Is the purpose of this thread to either find or present justification (or both) for killing witches?
I hope not.

Same here. I'd hate to see Nigerian Witch Hunts spread to other parts of the world.


We did have witch hunts in early America. Later times, the witches were referred to a Communists. Now, apparently those sneaky witches are posing as Muslims!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



AngelRho
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16 Sep 2011, 8:07 pm

I'm certainly not trying to justify killing witches in any modern context, nor do I think that Christians are ever justified in so doing. The thing is, I believe the state has the right to do what it wants--or at least what the people grants it the power to do. Since witch-killing cannot be justified by Christian theology, then it becomes a matter of the state. From my understanding, the biggest problem in Salem wasn't anti-witch laws, since they had the right to outlaw witchcraft for their own reasons and enforce the laws. The REAL problem was the lack of due process and absurdity of the trials themselves.

Incidentally, I once played the part of Thomas Putnam in a community theater production of "The Crucible".

Anyway... The point is that what happened was clearly a state legislative and/or political matter since the Bible does not justify Christians killing witches. The only justification would be the same justification for killing anyone--if they actually posed a real threat to anyone. This would have applied to the ancient Israelites returning to Canaan. It doesn't work in any other religious context, and Christian witch-killing under a religious pretext was erroneous.

There is something I don't understand. The word for "to live" being causative doesn't really change the common translation. There are other passages that concur with what you're basically saying means "do not hire a sorceress." Still other passages explicitly say that idolators are to be killed (which would include sorcerers/sorceresses, necromancers, and the like). While either translation is compatible with similar passages found elsewhere, I hardly see why it being a causative verb necessarily means "do not hire a witch" versus "kill witches." The commonly understood "do not allow a sorceress to live" seems to me a better translation.

At least, it makes better sense that way if you're following the Leningrad Codex. The Septuagint renders it something like "do not procure a potion-maker." I find it unusual for ruveyn to favor a Greek translation over a Hebrew. But it IS entirely possible that the LXX might be based on an earlier source text than that of the Masoretic.



Fnord
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16 Sep 2011, 8:36 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Is the purpose of this thread to either find or present justification (or both) for killing witches?
I hope not.
Same here. I'd hate to see Nigerian Witch Hunts spread to other parts of the world.
We did have witch hunts in early America. Later times, the witches were referred to a Communists. Now, apparently those sneaky witches are posing as Muslims! -Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ONOES! OMG! Whatever shall we do? :duh:


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pandabear
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16 Sep 2011, 10:52 pm

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pandabear
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16 Sep 2011, 10:54 pm

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Kraichgauer
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17 Sep 2011, 3:58 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I'm certainly not trying to justify killing witches in any modern context, nor do I think that Christians are ever justified in so doing. The thing is, I believe the state has the right to do what it wants--or at least what the people grants it the power to do. Since witch-killing cannot be justified by Christian theology, then it becomes a matter of the state. From my understanding, the biggest problem in Salem wasn't anti-witch laws, since they had the right to outlaw witchcraft for their own reasons and enforce the laws. The REAL problem was the lack of due process and absurdity of the trials themselves.

Incidentally, I once played the part of Thomas Putnam in a community theater production of "The Crucible".

Anyway... The point is that what happened was clearly a state legislative and/or political matter since the Bible does not justify Christians killing witches. The only justification would be the same justification for killing anyone--if they actually posed a real threat to anyone. This would have applied to the ancient Israelites returning to Canaan. It doesn't work in any other religious context, and Christian witch-killing under a religious pretext was erroneous.

There is something I don't understand. The word for "to live" being causative doesn't really change the common translation. There are other passages that concur with what you're basically saying means "do not hire a sorceress." Still other passages explicitly say that idolators are to be killed (which would include sorcerers/sorceresses, necromancers, and the like). While either translation is compatible with similar passages found elsewhere, I hardly see why it being a causative verb necessarily means "do not hire a witch" versus "kill witches." The commonly understood "do not allow a sorceress to live" seems to me a better translation.

At least, it makes better sense that way if you're following the Leningrad Codex. The Septuagint renders it something like "do not procure a potion-maker." I find it unusual for ruveyn to favor a Greek translation over a Hebrew. But it IS entirely possible that the LXX might be based on an earlier source text than that of the Masoretic.


We moderns see the witch trials in Salem as an absurdity. With them, it was a case of a society that was outside of the mainstream of their own country, England, who were living in self-imposed exile in an isolated wilderness. Add the fact that people of that time actually believed in what we today know is superstition, witches, and what you have is the perfect situation for mass hysteria to suddenly explode. We know from cases even today in the third world, and in groups outside the mainstream in western industrialized countries such as many Voodoo cults, evangelicals and traditionalist (Latin Mass) Roman Catholics, possession is believed in so strongly that some individuals undergo dissociative episodes. In such episodes, the kind of bizarre and frightening behavior witnessed in Salem is observed.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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17 Sep 2011, 5:34 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

We moderns see the witch trials in Salem as an absurdity. With them, it was a case of a society that was outside of the mainstream of their own country, England, who were living in self-imposed exile in an isolated wilderness. Add the fact that people of that time actually believed in what we today know is superstition, witches, and what you have is the perfect situation for mass hysteria to suddenly explode. We know from cases even today in the third world, and in groups outside the mainstream in western industrialized countries such as many Voodoo cults, evangelicals and traditionalist (Latin Mass) Roman Catholics, possession is believed in so strongly that some individuals undergo dissociative episodes. In such episodes, the kind of bizarre and frightening behavior witnessed in Salem is observed.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The New England puritans were, on the whole, nerve frazzled, addlepated psychopathic God freaks. Truly insane. They even made Chruch attendance compulsory.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
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17 Sep 2011, 5:36 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

We moderns see the witch trials in Salem as an absurdity. With them, it was a case of a society that was outside of the mainstream of their own country, England, who were living in self-imposed exile in an isolated wilderness. Add the fact that people of that time actually believed in what we today know is superstition, witches, and what you have is the perfect situation for mass hysteria to suddenly explode. We know from cases even today in the third world, and in groups outside the mainstream in western industrialized countries such as many Voodoo cults, evangelicals and traditionalist (Latin Mass) Roman Catholics, possession is believed in so strongly that some individuals undergo dissociative episodes. In such episodes, the kind of bizarre and frightening behavior witnessed in Salem is observed.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The New England puritans were, on the whole, nerve frazzled, addlepated psychopathic God freaks. Truly insane. They even made Chruch attendance compulsory.

ruveyn


That's the short version of what I said. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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17 Sep 2011, 5:43 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU[/youtube]