Ron Paul

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GoonSquad
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11 Dec 2011, 3:28 am

Jacoby wrote:

Neither is saddling these kids with 30k-100k+ in debt for degrees that becoming increasingly worthless. If the demand fell, prices would naturally fall as well and then maybe education would actually be affordable.

The degrees are worthless because they aren't earned anymore.

I used to give tests to all the applicants for electronics tech jobs at the company I worked for. HR decided that we would only consider applicants with AAS degrees. I bet I tested 2 dozen kids from Kansas State. Not one of them could pass our test. Not one was remotely competent. All of them had degrees.

Degrees are worthless because anyone who can pay for one gets one.

The answer to this problem is increased academic rigor, not decreased access. Let the flunkies flunk.

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dmm1010
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11 Dec 2011, 3:33 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

well his campaign website was ok, then I got to the anti-abortion part.........we don't need some guy who thinks abortion should be illegal in office, and some of the other stuff did not seem all that well thought out.

Ron Paul believes that each state should decide whether to permit abortions within its territory. In other words he believes abortion is neither a right that is protected, nor an act that is prohibited, by the Constitution of the United States. He is correct.

Chronos
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11 Dec 2011, 3:42 am

dmm1010 wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

WORD!

The school I'm going to just had a 10% tuition hike directly related to funding cuts. This was after eating a funding cut last year and not raising tuition.

I have plenty of problems with higher ed, the idea that everyone needs a degree, the dumbing down of the curriculum (directly related to the first point), and a host of other things, but abundance of student loans is not among them.

But don't grants and student loans that are available to almost anyone who wants one create an environment in which the idea that everyone needs a degree can flourish?

Different grants have different stipulations on them. Most of my grants were merit based.

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11 Dec 2011, 3:46 am

GoonSquad wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

Everybody can get one because everybody can get a government loan to pay for them to get one. Access wouldn't be decreased if prices fell, the smart people would still be able to go to college. Increasing academic standards now would only make things worse, now even more of those poor saps who got these government loans would fall by the wayside to debt slavery and with no degree(worthless or otherwise) to show for it.

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11 Dec 2011, 3:50 am

dmm1010 wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

Only if you're selecting on the basis of class and economic means.

Smart people should be encouraged to get degrees, not rich/poor people.

Rigorous academics, not lack of money, should weed people out.

With regard to student loans, I agree with you; however, I'm definitely not a proponent of "free college." The problem is that as things stand rigorous academics don't usually weed people out, but rather merely cause them to change their major to a "soft" subject.

My academic program was incredibly rigorous and I am of the opinion that it shouldn't have been so much so. The program was very information intensive and a lot of that information was actually irrelevant to the real world work place, so people were wasting enormous amounts of time memorizing things it was irrelevant to memorize. In addition, though the program was an extended program, longer than most college programs, they still attempted to cram too much information in too little time. This resulted in heavy grade curving because the reality was, uncurved, the average grade was a D, even though the subject itself shouldn't have been difficult.

It reduced what should have been a positive academic environment to who could sleep the least, work the fastest, memorize the most useless information, and cheat best. I was bumped up an entire grade via the curve in one course when 20 people were failed for cheating.

People graduated the program knowing little and understanding less.

dmm1010
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11 Dec 2011, 3:51 am

Chronos wrote:

Different grants have different stipulations on them. Most of my grants were merit based.

I was mostly referring to the Pell Grant, which isn't merit based.

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11 Dec 2011, 3:53 am

GoonSquad wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

As a person who went through a very rigorous college program, I disagree with you. People get degrees because it's hard to get a descent job without one. If companies were more willing to hire and train people without degrees, and pay living wages to non-degree positions, less people would go to college. In the 80's and 90's college and getting a good education was seen as the path to a better life.

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11 Dec 2011, 3:55 am

dmm1010 wrote:

Chronos wrote:

Different grants have different stipulations on them. Most of my grants were merit based.

I was mostly referring to the Pell Grant, which isn't merit based.

They could limit it to practical majors such as science, engineering, accounting, business, law, medicine, mathematics, statistics, economics, and teaching.

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11 Dec 2011, 3:57 am

dmm1010 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well it looked to me like he was very clear that he is strongly pro-life, but hey if he's willing to leave it up to the states I'll stay in my state and it's all good. If he will also allow states to decide themselves on the marijuana issue that would be awesome to. Also In this thread there was talk of cutting public services/government programs that help people..........I would hope if he got elected his goal would not be to cut those things........if he wants to reform stuff so its more efficient then I would be alright with that.

Still though the office of president does not hold a lot of power so even if he did get in, we would still have the same people running things behind the scenes. And if he was to challenge it its not like an 'assasination' could not take place so what could he really do?

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GoonSquad
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11 Dec 2011, 4:00 am

Chronos wrote:

[

My academic program was incredibly rigorous and I am of the opinion that it shouldn't have been so much so. The program was very information intensive and a lot of that information was actually irrelevant to the real world work place, so people were wasting enormous amounts of time memorizing things it was irrelevant to memorize. In addition, though the program was an extended program, longer than most college programs, they still attempted to cram too much information in too little time. This resulted in heavy grade curving because the reality was, uncurved, the average grade was a D, even though the subject itself shouldn't have been difficult.

It reduced what should have been a positive academic environment to who could sleep the least, work the fastest, memorize the most useless information, and cheat best. I was bumped up an entire grade via the curve in one course when 20 people were failed for cheating.

People graduated the program knowing little and understanding less.

Ahh, a business major! :lol:

That really doesn't sound like a rigorous program to me, just a bad one...

Memorization and regurgitation isn't education.

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dmm1010
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11 Dec 2011, 4:03 am

Chronos wrote:

They could limit it to practical majors such as science, engineering, accounting, business, law, medicine, mathematics, statistics, economics, and teaching.

Ah, I only wish; but, surely many would complain that we're stifling creativity or some such nonsense by not including in that list arts and humanities. :roll:

Not to mention that there are those who would argue, wrongly, that pure science isn't "practical."

Last edited by dmm1010 on 11 Dec 2011, 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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11 Dec 2011, 4:07 am

Chronos wrote:

dmm1010 wrote:

Chronos wrote:

Different grants have different stipulations on them. Most of my grants were merit based.

I was mostly referring to the Pell Grant, which isn't merit based.

They could limit it to practical majors such as science, engineering, accounting, business, law, medicine, mathematics, statistics, economics, and teaching.

Well its less likely I would have gone to college if those were the only degree options availible, which could have been a good thing.

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GoonSquad
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11 Dec 2011, 4:21 am

dmm1010 wrote:

Chronos wrote:

They could limit it to practical majors such as science, engineering, accounting, business, law, medicine, mathematics, statistics, economics, and teaching.

Ah, I only wish; but, surely many would complain that we're stifling creativity or some such nonsense by not including in that list arts and humanities. :roll:

Naa, states do that all the time.

I live in a lottery scholarship state and the lottery scholarship (for nontraditional students) has all sorts of restrictions based on merit and major. You won't get it unless you have a near perfect GPA in a Science/Engineering/Math related field of study.

However, I think neglecting the humanities/classical subjects is why society is going to hell in a hand basket.

American society was conceived by men with classical educations to be run by men with classical educations.

The reason society is deteriorating so much is because people no longer understand why things need to be done a certain way....

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dmm1010
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11 Dec 2011, 4:31 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well it looked to me like he was very clear that he is strongly pro-life

Ron Paul's personal beliefs and/or feelings about abortion aren't relevant. His record shows that he will defend the Constitution as it was originally framed.

Quote:

, but hey if he's willing to leave it up to the states I'll stay in my state and it's all good. If he will also allow states to decide themselves on the marijuana issue that would be awesome to.

Ron Paul has said that if he is elected he will end the Federal "War on Drugs."

Quote:

Also In this thread there was talk of cutting public services/government programs that help people..........I would hope if he got elected his goal would not be to cut those things........if he wants to reform stuff so its more efficient then I would be alright with that.

Those would be Federal programs.

Quote:

Still though the office of president does not hold a lot of power so even if he did get in, we would still have the same people running things behind the scenes. And if he was to challenge it its not like an 'assasination' could not take place so what could he really do?

I think you have a point here unfortunately.

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11 Dec 2011, 4:33 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Look at it this way, if Ron Paul were elected his top priorities are things like bringing troops home and slashing programs that are both wasteful and illiberal, like the drug war. By the time he got down to the social services you're thinking of, he'd of cut so much already that they'd look downright affordable.

That's an area where libertarians in general are poorly understood and often unfairly portrayed, we don't want people starving in the streets and we don't want an end to government services, the majority of what we want is a rollback of authoritarian government agencies and policies. Spend tax money on education programs or assistance for the disabled? No problem! It's the spending on locking people up for getting high or spreading "democracy" by the gun that we tend to object to.

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Sweetleaf
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11 Dec 2011, 4:34 am

dmm1010 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well it looked to me like he was very clear that he is strongly pro-life

Ron Paul's personal beliefs and/or feelings about abortion aren't relevant. His record shows that he will defend the Constitution as it was originally framed.

Alright no complaints there, I will admit I did not spend a lot of time on the website, so maybe it went on to talk about how regardless of his personal beliefs he would defend the constitution.

Quote:

, but hey if he's willing to leave it up to the states I'll stay in my state and it's all good. If he will also allow states to decide themselves on the marijuana issue that would be awesome to.

Ron Paul has said that if he is elected he will end the Federal "War on Drugs."

I most certainly would agree with that.

Quote:

Those would be Federal programs.

So it would be up to the state to provide such programs? That could be good because the feds suck.

Quote:

I think you have a point here unfortunately.

Yes unfortunatly I do.

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