Two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door...

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I would also like to add this. If the theory of evolution were true, all it explains is how man evolved. It doesn't explain how life actually began. In other words what was the "spark" that began life? Something to think about...

Okay I'll disappear now... :)

I was talking about something stupid or senseless to someone and some guy came over and thought I was a 'Bible-Thumper' (It happens to me in real life as well; I was also thought to be a Satanist during my college years), and of course this guy asks some ignorant question: "Where are aliens in the Bible?"

I am an atheist, but when they fly low you have to shoot them, so I decided to not walk away. Usually I would have said "Well, where do Puerto Ricans come from?" (EDIT: EVEN THOUGH NOW I SHOULD HAVE SAID WHERE DO DINOSAURS COME FROM, FANTASTIC!! !) since this was a book written by people who only knew certain things about their area, and at the very most could not fully comprehend what God was saying to them (or however inspiration happens) and had to explain things according to the world they knew and only that area of the world. But I went to Catholic school, and I actually knew the answer to this question:

I immediately said, "They are in the Book of Ezekiel." It was definitely in middle school that I learned this one. Based on one interpretation, an early part of the book mentioned these strange figures and "Wheels in the sky" or something like that. Our religion class text said they could have been space aliens. Never mind I felt this was false (no historical/cultural proof behind any of this that I found, it was just a snippet) and more than likely open to interpretation since Ezekiel is that kind of book. I just repeated what my class text said since he obviously thought he got me.

The guy looks at me, stops for a second, and goes, "BUT CHRISTIANS DON'T BELIEVE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT!! !!" I knew I won and just stood quiet and laughed at him the rest of the "debate" as he rambled on and on and eventually just walked away.

Yes, that's exactly it. We haven't yet discovered the circumstances that create life but we do have a very good understanding of what happens once there is life.

BTW, creationism (or intelligent design, whatever it's called now) is not a theory in the scientific sense, it's not even a hypothesis. It's important to remember that.

A scientific theory isn't just "a theory". You have a misconception of what a scientific theory is.

I do and I am a Christian or a follower of Christ. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 makes it abundantly clear that "All Scripture is inspired of God" not just the NT; all of it. "and [it's] beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." Paul writes, "For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." (Romans 15:4)

Think of the OT and the NT as a single story that is told over the course of 66 books. Like any book there's a theme that runs through the story. What's the theme of the Bible? Very simply it is:

1. The vindication of Jehovah's sovereignty, and the sanctification of his good name. (Matthew 6:9,10)
2. God's Kingdom is the instrument by which this will be accomplished. (Daniel 2:44)
3. Jesus is the chief agent and King of God's Kingdom. (John 3:16; John 1:29; Revelation 5:13)

It's so simple a five year old can understand this.

Last edited by kxmode on 27 Oct 2011, 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm sorry, I might be aloof, but I was making fun of someone who said that. I do not believe that. Of course they do.

That's okay. People are free to believe whatever they wish. I don't hold it against them.

Thank you for participating kxmode and sharing those links. I also want to thank you for being a supporter of Wrong Planet helping make all these forums and other resources possible.

Accepting evolution does not necessarily mean rejecting a Creator. Even if it turns out science discovers that abiogenesis occurs in nature (life forming from non-living materials), that still does not disprove a Creator. However, many of the "facts" about evolution that are quoted in Watchtower and other JW publications are wrong, just plain flat out wrong, and one does not have to look very hard to find this is so.

The two main questions I have for anyone who denies that evolution happens are:

1. Would you trust advice on spiritual matters from someone who insisted the earth is flat? That is exactly how ridiculous this so-called "controversy" is.

2. If evolution didn't happen, then why oh why did Jehovah plant so much evidence of so many different types that clearly show it does happen? Wouldn't that make Jehovah a trickster? Why would He say one thing in His creation that is contradicted by His book, unless, just possibly, that part of the book was never meant to be taken literally?

!) I wouldn't ask him anything scientific maybe. But those two subjects are different, I wouldn't ask a priest about science, like I wouldn't ask a scientist about religion. Well I would but you know what I mean?

2) evolution can exist with their belief in being created. You both could be right. You're acting as if all the pieces to the puzzle have been put in place. Like science has all the answers and you know better. The earth is flat, the earth is round, the earth is some weird morphing shape. You bring up the flat earth thing but just proves how science can be mistaken.

Maybe I am wrong but you do seem like you and some others just have some bias towards people like that. I'm not reading too into things. You are spelling it out for everyone to see.

I see evolution like this. I work as a cashier. Someone hands me a $20 bill. If I had no device to test how could I tell if this bill is fake? Do I study an endless array of fake bills? You'd probably say "no, that's a huge waste of time." So instead time would be better spent studying a real $20 bill, this way I can spot a fake $20 easily. Similarly using the bible to reason is like studying a real $20 bill. I don't need to look for theory after theory. Scriptures prove, at least to me, that conclusively there is a God, his name is Jehovah, and he created everything. The scientific evidence shows that the absolute order ranging from the atomic levels up to cosmic levels cannot be a random event. Or the complexity in something as simple as a cell, and DNA is amazing. Or how wonderfully made the human eye truly is (how we can see in stereoscopic color while many animals cannot). Or how amazingly complex the brain truly is. Or how so many animals have wonderful abilities like sonar that still baffle scientists. All of these examples show there none of it was random and that all of it had to be designed, and obviously something that is designed would have a creator. I say this not only as a Jehovah's Witness but also as a graphic designer who creates websites and music.

I believe Paul's words at Romans 1:20-21 aptly sums up how I feel, "For his (God's) invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;"

Last edited by kxmode on 28 Oct 2011, 3:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

The Jehovah's Witnesses that tried to save me a couple decades ago in Central California by coming to my door every other week or so were intelligent to the knowledges of calendars and astronomy, while the Book of Mormon Bicyclists coming to my door didn't know if we were using the Gregorian Calendar or not, and not much of anything else. Then, I could try my EEOC arguments out on them, to their consternation.

Now, in Northern California, they both are as if they can only follow a current spiel, and they become near totally lost if they're interrupted with any question about related details, and currently, no more free books/booklets. Just a sheet at most.

Since I don't believe in random events, and I consider probabilities as ratios of ignorance, that course of conversation has curious results, with conflicts within foreknowledges.

Tadzio

It is important to distinguish between someone who believes in a Creator versus a "Creationist" which in common usage means someone who denies that evolution happens. Many people DO rely on their priests or ministers for information about science. Unfortunately some of those religious leaders are spreading misinformation because their own sources (the most well-known creationist web sites and books) are full of denials, distortions, misquotations, and out and out fabrications that just ain't so. Evolution is not the way the anti-evolution people describe it. They are battling a straw man.

But are you saying you would consider someone who insists the earth is flat as possibly having great "truths" to share with you? Really? To me, if they are in such blatant denial of observable reality, so obviously wrong about something so easily checked that has so much evidence showing they are wrong, it raises questions of their very sanity, not just their credibility on spiritual matters.

And yes, it is possible that God used evolution as a tool of creation. As I pointed out earlier, most Christians worldwide belong to denominations that have come to terms with the reality of evolution even if some of the followers of those denominations don't know the official position of their church on this subject because of all the blatant lies spread by a very vocal minority.

I am not acting like all the pieces of the puzzle are in place. However, the evidence showing that all living forms on earth are related by common ancestry is so overwhelming that if some new evidence were to be found that could somehow overthrow it, as I said before, and this is no exaggeration, we would basically have to scrap everything we know of all of science and start from scratch. Also as I said before, if this were to happen I personally would be delighted.

Some creationists don't realize that some of their own sources admit that Darwin was right about the idea of common ancestry. On page 72 of his book The Edge of Evolution, Michael Behe (the star scientist of the "intelligent design" movement) admits common descent is true, even the common descent of humans and chimps. But he says it is "trivial."

Last edited by TheBicyclingGuitarist on 28 Oct 2011, 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

I don't think the Bible is meant to be a textbook of science or history. In my opinion, to treat it as such misses the point of what it is trying to teach us. Evolution is not a random event (do the words "natural selection" ring a bell?) but there is no scientific evidence of "design" in the way most people use that term unless it is a very incompetent designer. It is the imperfections of our design that support evolution, besides all the other evidence such as the fossil record and genetics (to name just two types of evidence, there are many, many more besides that).

He didnt attack them.

They made fools of themselves.

All he did was politely point out their folly to them.

They asserted that the Moon is made of green cheese.

Indeed- arogantly asserted that conviction.

He pointed out evidence to the contrary: that the moon is not a diary product.

Why is that a problem for you?

The BG IS bragging, but who doesnt toot their own horn now and then?

Your point that "both evolution and a creator could be true" is fine.

But arent you telling that to the wrong party?

The BG was arguing for the existence of evolution, not against the existence of God.

Its the Jehovah's WItnesses who imply that belief in god and belief in evolution are incompatible. Creationism is obviously a major supporting column in their edifice- based on their literature.

If you believe that theism and Darwin are in fact compatible then its the JWs that you need to inform, not the BG.

The apostles' asked Jesus why he used illustrations when speaking to the crowds. Jesus answered, "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it;" Why? Jesus continues, "For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’" (Matthew 13:11-15)

In other words there are many scriptures that clearly communicate scientific and historical information but you choose not to see them this way. This is the primary reason why I don't like to communicate on this forum. Most of you are too firmly fixed in your beliefs to even contemplate a spiritual point of view.

I think instead you should do a is the Messiah = Michael thread.
I think that is way more intriguing than JW vs Darwin.