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Why doesn't the American justice system consider psychopathy

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Raptor
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15 Jan 2012, 2:51 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
What about all of those insane nuclear warlords who nuked Hiroshima and killed thousands?


Insane warlords?
Well the alternative was a land invasion of Japan. Given the Japanese mindset at the time, the death toll would have been much higher and that would include American and allied deaths in addition to Japanese.
The invasion of Okinawa cost an estimated 100,000 deaths in total.
Nuclear weapons were on the way in at the time, anyway; we were just the ones to break the ice and make a few that would work.



Last edited by Raptor on 15 Jan 2012, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vigilans
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15 Jan 2012, 2:55 pm

Raptor wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
What about all of those insane nuclear warlords who nuked Hiroshima and killed thousands?


Insane warlords?
Well the alternative was a land invasion of Japan. Given the Japanese mindset at the time, the death toll would have been much higher and that would include American and allied deaths in addition to Japanese.
The invasion of Okinawa cost nearly 100,000 deaths in total.
Nuclear weapons were on the way in at the time, anyway; we were just the ones to break the ice and make a few that would work.


Pretty well. Another thing that never ceases to amaze me is that the conventional bombing of many cities actually resulted in more casualties than the nuclear weapons, but I don't hear too many people complaining about that


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androbot2084
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15 Jan 2012, 2:58 pm

The alternative to nuclear war was to have America surrender to Japan. The terms of surrender would be to have the Japanese language a requirement for high school graduation.

We surrender to the Japanese all the time. Recently the Japanese closed a Toyota factory in California but I don't remember anyone threatening to nuke Japan even though thousands of jobs were lost.



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15 Jan 2012, 3:00 pm

America's alternative was surrender? Wrong. The Japanese were beaten by the time of the bombings. They just refused to recognize it. They couldn't even put their fleet to sea anymore due to lack of fuel. The nuclear weapons convinced them of the futility of further resistance


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Raptor
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15 Jan 2012, 3:10 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
The alternative to nuclear war was to have America surrender to Japan. The terms of surrender would be to have the Japanese language a requirement for high school graduation.

We surrender to the Japanese all the time. Recently the Japanese closed a Toyota factory in California but I don't remember anyone threatening to nuke Japan even though thousands of jobs were lost.


You're comparing 1945 to 2012.

Anyhow, this would be better as a separate thread since it really has nothing to do with this topic.



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15 Jan 2012, 3:12 pm

Vigilans wrote:
America's alternative was surrender? Wrong. The Japanese were beaten by the time of the bombings. They just refused to recognize it. They couldn't even put their fleet to sea anymore due to lack of fuel. The nuclear weapons convinced them of the futility of further resistance
Trolls have an insatiable appetite, you're better off not feeding them. As for the nuclear bombs, I'm not sure if they were really necessary. IIRC the Japanese were already getting ready to surrender. I don't know, my memory of WWII history is real fuzzy so you could fill me in here if I'm wrong.

As for why psychopathy isn't considered a mental illness by the American justice system, because they are mentally sane and are fully capable of self-control.



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15 Jan 2012, 3:37 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

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IIRC the Japanese were already getting ready to surrender.

Then why did they have to be nuked TWICE before the surrender? The bombings were three days apart so they had ample time to surrender. I would think that the bombing of Hiroshima would have brought a surrender by COB that day or the next at the latest.
Even before that they knew damn good and well that a land invasion in addition to increased conventional bombings were imminent.
They brought their ultimate fate upon themselves on 7 Dec. 1941.

Unfortunately the U.S. lacks that kind of iron resolve these days. :(



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15 Jan 2012, 3:51 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

As for why psychopathy isn't considered a mental illness by the American justice system, because they are mentally sane and are fully capable of self-control.


not according to most dictionary definitions and some legal definitions of sanity. and poor self control is quintessential to psychopathy.


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15 Jan 2012, 4:07 pm

peebo wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:

As for why psychopathy isn't considered a mental illness by the American justice system, because they are mentally sane and are fully capable of self-control.


not according to most dictionary definitions and some legal definitions of sanity. and poor self control is quintessential to psychopathy.
In the legal sense of the word there are two things that render you insane during the act.

1) You couldn't distinguish between right and wrong
2) You knew it was wrong but you were completely unable to control yourself

When it comes to psychopaths, they are aware of what society considers right and wrong and poor impulse control doesn't mean an inability to control oneself but being tempted once the means and opportunity gives them a motive to commit a crime.

Raptor wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Quote:
IIRC the Japanese were already getting ready to surrender.

Then why did they have to be nuked TWICE before the surrender? The bombings were three days apart so they had ample time to surrender. I would think that the bombing of Hiroshima would have brought a surrender by COB that day or the next at the latest.
Even before that they knew damn good and well that a land invasion in addition to increased conventional bombings were imminent.
They brought their ultimate fate upon themselves on 7 Dec. 1941.

Unfortunately the U.S. lacks that kind of iron resolve these days. :(
That's a good point, I'll have to read up a bit and refresh my memory.



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15 Jan 2012, 4:11 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
America's alternative was surrender? Wrong. The Japanese were beaten by the time of the bombings. They just refused to recognize it. They couldn't even put their fleet to sea anymore due to lack of fuel. The nuclear weapons convinced them of the futility of further resistance
Trolls have an insatiable appetite, you're better off not feeding them. As for the nuclear bombs, I'm not sure if they were really necessary. IIRC the Japanese were already getting ready to surrender. I don't know, my memory of WWII history is real fuzzy so you could fill me in here if I'm wrong.

As for why psychopathy isn't considered a mental illness by the American justice system, because they are mentally sane and are fully capable of self-control.


lol the poor guy gets so many accusations of trolling

Some in the government did want to surrender but the militarists were the ones really in control. They would have killed these politicians given the chance. I seem to recall there being a plot along those lines in the event of surrender


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15 Jan 2012, 7:26 pm

I had no idea a schizophrenic was looked at as a criminal personality.



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15 Jan 2012, 7:35 pm

Vigilans wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
America's alternative was surrender? Wrong. The Japanese were beaten by the time of the bombings. They just refused to recognize it. They couldn't even put their fleet to sea anymore due to lack of fuel. The nuclear weapons convinced them of the futility of further resistance
Trolls have an insatiable appetite, you're better off not feeding them. As for the nuclear bombs, I'm not sure if they were really necessary. IIRC the Japanese were already getting ready to surrender. I don't know, my memory of WWII history is real fuzzy so you could fill me in here if I'm wrong.

As for why psychopathy isn't considered a mental illness by the American justice system, because they are mentally sane and are fully capable of self-control.


lol the poor guy gets so many accusations of trolling
Well he likes herping and derping one liners about the religious right or the evils of nuclear technology so if the shoe fits he can wear it.

Vigilans wrote:
Some in the government did want to surrender but the militarists were the ones really in control. They would have killed these politicians given the chance. I seem to recall there being a plot along those lines in the event of surrender
Oh ok that's why I was thinking they were going to surrender, it seemed like the politicians were the ones running things. Makes a lot of sense now.



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16 Jan 2012, 7:35 am

Circle989898 wrote:
I had no idea a schizophrenic was looked at as a criminal personality.


Well, the majority are not violent, in fact, they're more likely to be victims of violence. But nevertheless, occasionally schizophrenic people do commit violence as a result of their illness. We had a case here in the Portland metro (Vancouver, Washington) of a schizophrenic stabbing this random 17 year old girl to death at McDonalds, back in 2006. Said he was compelled to 'hurt a female' or something like that. Really bizarre and sad, but I don't think he is criminally responsible for her death. Though then again, I'd have to know his psyche better. Certainly don't want him walking the street for a long time though, if ever.

A similar and even more gruesome case happened back in 2008 in Manitoba with that Chinese guy who eviscerated a young man on a Greyhound bus. Now THAT was strange. I'm pretty sure he was delusional, he thought God wanted him to kill the guy. I think often times schizophrenics, being paranoid, kill in what they view as self-defense, when really there's no danger at all to them.



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16 Jan 2012, 1:02 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
peebo wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:

As for why psychopathy isn't considered a mental illness by the American justice system, because they are mentally sane and are fully capable of self-control.


not according to most dictionary definitions and some legal definitions of sanity. and poor self control is quintessential to psychopathy.
In the legal sense of the word there are two things that render you insane during the act.

1) You couldn't distinguish between right and wrong
2) You knew it was wrong but you were completely unable to control yourself

When it comes to psychopaths, they are aware of what society considers right and wrong and poor impulse control doesn't mean an inability to control oneself but being tempted once the means and opportunity gives them a motive to commit a crime.


this isn't necessarily accurate either. people can be "completely unable to control themselves" as a result of something as simple as anger, which doesn't necessitate any cognitive impairment at all.

the pcl-r refers to behaviour control. given that behaviour is defined as the action or reaction of a thing under specific circumstances, i think we can safely in this case equate it with self control.


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16 Jan 2012, 1:03 pm

Circle989898 wrote:
I had no idea a schizophrenic was looked at as a criminal personality.


i'm assuming this is a facetious response to ace of spades, right?


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16 Jan 2012, 1:05 pm

It boils down to the question of free will. IMO, one can't morally justify a punitive system of ethics unless we really do have free will. I'm unconvinced that free will exists, however, I could be wrong.

I suppose in a way there is another form of justifying retributive justice. The fact that it satisfies victims' need for revenge enough that a blood feud doesn't happen. In a way the justice system is meant to protect the criminal as well. Do you think Mark Chapman would last a week outside of jail?