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Kraichgauer
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24 Mar 2012, 8:46 pm

Joker wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Anti-Hebrew would have done the trick as well as being more right on.


Hebrew is a language, not a cultural group. People incorrectly refer to Jews as "Hebrews" sometimes, and it is offensive.

You don't call the Romans Latins, you don't call Africans Swahilis, you don't call the Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese.


And you dont call germans Prussians.


No, Prussians were specifically once in north east Germany, in what today constitutes Brandenburg, and what has since become northwest Poland (my Mom's maternal family had hailed from West Prussia, which is today part of Poland). But at one time, the Prussians had united the rest of the Germans into a mighty nation, and exported their culture based on military honor, discipline, and obedience to the rest of Germany. But to call a Bavarian a Prussian would be a good way to start a fist fight. My Mom's paternal family had been Bavarian/Austrian; and while her parents had a lifelong marriage, my grandfather's family had held the fact that my grandmother was Prussian and a Lutheran against her - and I suspect also because she had had a Jewish family name.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



snapcap
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24 Mar 2012, 8:50 pm

LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Anti-Hebrew would have done the trick as well as being more right on.


Hebrew is a language, not a cultural group. People incorrectly refer to Jews as "Hebrews" sometimes, and it is offensive.

You don't call the Romans Latins, you don't call Africans Swahilis, you don't call the Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese.


What is the preferred term for the group?


Actually the Torah calls us Yhudi, because there's no J sound in Hebrew. For example, Jacob is Yakov in Hebrew. The Romans came, with their fancy schmancy J-sound, and called them "Jud" instead, which mutated into "Jew." Similarly, "Jesus" is a mutation of the Hebrew version of Joshua, which is something like Yeshuhasha or something long and intimidating like that.

It's probably better to just say "Jew." We come in all shapes and sizes and nationalities, it would seem.


Roman's spoke Latin, Latin doesn't use the letter 'j', they use an 'i'

My Latin name in school was Iustino, instead of Justin.



Last edited by snapcap on 24 Mar 2012, 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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24 Mar 2012, 8:50 pm

Joker wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Anti-Hebrew would have done the trick as well as being more right on.


Hebrew is a language, not a cultural group. People incorrectly refer to Jews as "Hebrews" sometimes, and it is offensive.

You don't call the Romans Latins, you don't call Africans Swahilis, you don't call the Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese.


What is the preferred term for the group?


We prefer to be called German as a group.


Are you a German Jew, or are you saying that some cultures refer to themselves by the language they speak?

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


Im not jewish just german irish


May I ask, what part of Germany did your people hail from?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Joker
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24 Mar 2012, 8:57 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Anti-Hebrew would have done the trick as well as being more right on.


Hebrew is a language, not a cultural group. People incorrectly refer to Jews as "Hebrews" sometimes, and it is offensive.

You don't call the Romans Latins, you don't call Africans Swahilis, you don't call the Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese.


What is the preferred term for the group?


We prefer to be called German as a group.


Are you a German Jew, or are you saying that some cultures refer to themselves by the language they speak?

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


Im not jewish just german irish


May I ask, what part of Germany did your people hail from?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Homburg and Bavaria



LennytheWicked
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24 Mar 2012, 9:00 pm

snapcap wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Anti-Hebrew would have done the trick as well as being more right on.


Hebrew is a language, not a cultural group. People incorrectly refer to Jews as "Hebrews" sometimes, and it is offensive.

You don't call the Romans Latins, you don't call Africans Swahilis, you don't call the Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese.


What is the preferred term for the group?


Actually the Torah calls us Yhudi, because there's no J sound in Hebrew. For example, Jacob is Yakov in Hebrew. The Romans came, with their fancy schmancy J-sound, and called them "Jud" instead, which mutated into "Jew." Similarly, "Jesus" is a mutation of the Hebrew version of Joshua, which is something like Yeshuhasha or something long and intimidating like that.

It's probably better to just say "Jew." We come in all shapes and sizes and nationalities, it would seem.


Roman's spoke Latin, Latin doesn't use the letter 'j', they use an 'i'

My Latin name in school was Iustino, instead of Justin.


Apologies; I forgot that they substituted L's for J's in some cases. [Something like Leseus instead of Jesus.] I didn't know about I's though; I've had latin roots with J's in them.



snapcap
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24 Mar 2012, 9:06 pm

I think they sometimes used g, but I really don't remember. I only did enough work to pass.

But I've heard Jesus referred to as Iesus. I'm betting that's it.



Kraichgauer
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24 Mar 2012, 9:20 pm

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Anti-Hebrew would have done the trick as well as being more right on.


Hebrew is a language, not a cultural group. People incorrectly refer to Jews as "Hebrews" sometimes, and it is offensive.

You don't call the Romans Latins, you don't call Africans Swahilis, you don't call the Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese.


What is the preferred term for the group?


We prefer to be called German as a group.


Are you a German Jew, or are you saying that some cultures refer to themselves by the language they speak?

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


Im not jewish just german irish


May I ask, what part of Germany did your people hail from?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Homburg and Bavaria


My Dad's people way back during the Reformation had come from Luther's Saxony (no connection to the older Lower Saxony of the north, but in the eastern midlands). After the end of the Thirty Years War, they immigrated to the Kraichgau (hence my nick name), which is today northwestern Baden-Wurttemberg in southwestern Germany. My Dad had been told that some Frisian blood from the north got into the family, as well as other South Franconian speakers across the Rhine in northernmost Alsace (a German speaking part of France). By the early 19th century, they had immigrated to the Black Sea region of the Russian Empire with thousands of other southwest Germans who spoke mostly various Franconian dialects.
My Mom's people were much less complicated, coming from West Prussia, and the Bavarian and Austrian border region.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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24 Mar 2012, 9:25 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Anti-Hebrew would have done the trick as well as being more right on.


Hebrew is a language, not a cultural group. People incorrectly refer to Jews as "Hebrews" sometimes, and it is offensive.

You don't call the Romans Latins, you don't call Africans Swahilis, you don't call the Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese.


What is the preferred term for the group?


We prefer to be called German as a group.


Are you a German Jew, or are you saying that some cultures refer to themselves by the language they speak?

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


Im not jewish just german irish


May I ask, what part of Germany did your people hail from?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Homburg and Bavaria


My Dad's people way back during the Reformation had come from Luther's Saxony (no connection to the older Lower Saxony of the north, but in the eastern midlands). After the end of the Thirty Years War, they immigrated to the Kraichgau (hence my nick name), which is today northwestern Baden-Wurttemberg in southwestern Germany. My Dad had been told that some Frisian blood from the north got into the family, as well as other South Franconian speakers across the Rhine in northernmost Alsace (a German speaking part of France). By the early 19th century, they had immigrated to the Black Sea region of the Russian Empire with thousands of other southwest Germans who spoke mostly various Franconian dialects.
My Mom's people were much less complicated, coming from West Prussia, and the Bavarian and Austrian border region.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I find the Prussia empire and its history to be very interesting the way the empire was at the peak of its power until its fall very interesting time in history.



ruveyn
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24 Mar 2012, 10:32 pm

LennytheWicked wrote:

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


For many Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews, the second language is Yiddish. For them, Hebrew is used only for biblical discourse and for prayer, not everyday use.

Relatively few Jews in the U.S. are fluent in Hebrew. Hebrew can be read phonetically, but just being able to sound it out does not mean one knows what is written.

ruveyn



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25 Mar 2012, 12:20 am

ruveyn wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


For many Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews, the second language is Yiddish. For them, Hebrew is used only for biblical discourse and for prayer, not everyday use.

Relatively few Jews in the U.S. are fluent in Hebrew. Hebrew can be read phonetically, but just being able to sound it out does not mean one knows what is written.

ruveyn


Am I to understand you correctly - that there are Jewish people who read Hebrew script without understanding a word of what they are saying? Or did I majorly misunderstand you?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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25 Mar 2012, 7:44 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Am I to understand you correctly - that there are Jewish people who read Hebrew script without understanding a word of what they are saying? Or did I majorly misunderstand you?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


It is unfortunately the case. With many middle class American Jews, the early parts of "hebrew school" education teach how to -sound- the hebrew letters without teaching the language. This is to prepare a young person for a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah ceremony. After this has been done, many youngsters cease their Jewish education. It is a very unfortunate situation, but there it is.

ruveyn



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25 Mar 2012, 4:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Am I to understand you correctly - that there are Jewish people who read Hebrew script without understanding a word of what they are saying? Or did I majorly misunderstand you?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


It is unfortunately the case. With many middle class American Jews, the early parts of "hebrew school" education teach how to -sound- the hebrew letters without teaching the language. This is to prepare a young person for a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah ceremony. After this has been done, many youngsters cease their Jewish education. It is a very unfortunate situation, but there it is.

ruveyn


I know within Islam, Non-Arabic speaking students are taught to read Arabic without understanding a word of their own holy book.
Just to show you that this isn't restricted to Judaism and Islam, back in the 19th century, some Lutheran missionaries figured that Indians should learn German (!). I have no idea how long this foolishness lasted, but I suspect the Indians were largely reciting rather than learning.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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29 Mar 2012, 9:52 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


For many Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews, the second language is Yiddish. For them, Hebrew is used only for biblical discourse and for prayer, not everyday use.

Relatively few Jews in the U.S. are fluent in Hebrew. Hebrew can be read phonetically, but just being able to sound it out does not mean one knows what is written.

ruveyn


Am I to understand you correctly - that there are Jewish people who read Hebrew script without understanding a word of what they are saying? Or did I majorly misunderstand you?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Not quite; at least in my experience. For example, I know what the Veahafta is about, but not how to translate it. I know a few words, and a few sentences, but I'm not fluent. Lots of Jewish people are like this; they learn what it means first, how to read it second, and will attempt to learn some Hebrew.



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29 Mar 2012, 10:03 am

ruveyn wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:

The thing is, for many Jews, Hebrew is a second language. For many Germans, German is their first language, or so I would assume. For many Frenchies, French is their first language. However, Latinos don't speak Latin.


For many Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews, the second language is Yiddish. For them, Hebrew is used only for biblical discourse and for prayer, not everyday use.

Relatively few Jews in the U.S. are fluent in Hebrew. Hebrew can be read phonetically, but just being able to sound it out does not mean one knows what is written.

ruveyn


Not entirely true; most Jews of my generation do not speak Yiddish. Yiddish was spoken by Ashkenazi Jews, or Eastern European Jews. It carried over in some Jewish families, but it's not as common for American Jews to speak it. I don't know about European Jews.

I had an Israeli Hebrew teacher who spoke fluent Hebrew but barely any Yiddish at all. She knew some words that shared similarities with their Hebrew counterparts, because one of our Cantors likes to speak Yiddish whenever she gets an excuse to. In Israel, from my teacher's description, Hebrew is the main language.



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29 Mar 2012, 10:21 am

LennytheWicked wrote:

Not entirely true; most Jews of my generation do not speak Yiddish. Yiddish was spoken by Ashkenazi Jews, or Eastern European Jews. It carried over in some Jewish families, but it's not as common for American Jews to speak it. I don't know about European Jews.

I had an Israeli Hebrew teacher who spoke fluent Hebrew but barely any Yiddish at all. She knew some words that shared similarities with their Hebrew counterparts, because one of our Cantors likes to speak Yiddish whenever she gets an excuse to. In Israel, from my teacher's description, Hebrew is the main language.


The vast majority of orthodox Jews are of the Ashkenazik tradition. Many are brought up with Yiddish as their mother tongue.

ruveyn



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29 Mar 2012, 1:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:

Not entirely true; most Jews of my generation do not speak Yiddish. Yiddish was spoken by Ashkenazi Jews, or Eastern European Jews. It carried over in some Jewish families, but it's not as common for American Jews to speak it. I don't know about European Jews.

I had an Israeli Hebrew teacher who spoke fluent Hebrew but barely any Yiddish at all. She knew some words that shared similarities with their Hebrew counterparts, because one of our Cantors likes to speak Yiddish whenever she gets an excuse to. In Israel, from my teacher's description, Hebrew is the main language.


The vast majority of orthodox Jews are of the Ashkenazik tradition. Many are brought up with Yiddish as their mother tongue.

ruveyn


I don't know how many orthodox Jews are Ashkenazi, but most Jews of my generation, including at least some orthodox Jews, are not learning to speak Yiddish, and most likely will not teach their children Yiddish unless as a means to discreetly insult people.