Page 3 of 7 [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

DuneyBlues
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
Location: Enjoying Solitary Confinement

13 Apr 2012, 9:32 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
DuneyBlues wrote:
Race Deniers


I deny the validity of the term race, since it is an informal term that is not part of the zoological taxonomy, the lowest ranks of which are species and subspecies. But I guess this is not the kind of "race denial" that you were referring to :) I also don't recognize any subspecies of Homo sapiens (and neither does the scientific community at this point), which is probably closer to what you had in mind. I don't deny the existence of subspecies, mind you; I'm simply not currently aware of their existence.

This is your chance to change to remedy my ignorance and put forth your hypothesis. Could you compile a list of proposed human subspecies, named according to the principles of zoological nomenclature? Please also add a brief description as to why you feel that each group meets the the criteria for determining subspecific taxa. That would make this discussion a little more scientific and give me a better idea what exactly it is that you are proposing here. Thanks in advance :)

PS: I found the third video quite interesting, considering that the largest brain size among humans has been found in the Inuit people. Do you think there is a correlation between cranial volume / brain size and intelligence? If so, wouldn't that make the Inuit the most intelligent of all human populations?


(paragraph 2) Sure there's even a book about it!

http://books.google.ca/books/about/The_ ... edir_esc=y

( PS portion ) A simple google is all you need :)

http://news.discovery.com/human/brain-s ... 10726.html


_________________
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain


DuneyBlues
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
Location: Enjoying Solitary Confinement

13 Apr 2012, 9:36 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
DuneyBlues wrote:


I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with this. Race can't be a taxonomy. Taxonomy is the science of identifying and classifying living organisms. Race could be a taxon or a taxonomic rank within the biological taxonomy, but that is not the case. The term has been used in plant taxonomy in the past, but botany has also long replaced it with the species / subspecies taxa.

As for your link, as far as I can tell it has nothing whatsoever to do with your statement. It leads to a review of a book written by Richard Dawkins. I don't think that he is a big supporter of the idea of different human races, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Could you please quote the relevant part of the book? Without a quote, it makes little sense to use it as a reference, don't you think?

PS: I'm still waiting for your reply to my post. Do you have a list of human races, preferably one that was published in this century or the second half of the last century and has some scientific validity? Alternatively, you could post your own hypothesis. I still have no idea what exactly you mean when you talk about races. How many are there? What are they called? What are the classification criteria? We need to know this if we are meant to have a meaningful discussion about this subject, and I can't find any racial classification system for humans in the scientific literature for some weird reason.




( Para 2 ) I'm sorry for shifting the burden of proof on you but the whole book is based on this idea that there are different human races.

( PS ) Critics of the concept of "race" in humans usually argue that race is a folk taxonomy rather than a scientific classification , typical.

http://www.americanethnography.com/article.php?id=36

^ This argues for my statement.


_________________
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain


CrazyCatLord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,177

13 Apr 2012, 9:46 pm

DuneyBlues wrote:
(paragraph 2) Sure there's even a book about it!

http://books.google.ca/books/about/The_ ... edir_esc=y

( PS portion ) A simple google is all you need :)

http://news.discovery.com/human/brain-s ... 10726.html


The second link is very helpful, thanks :)

Quote: "The larger brains and eyeballs lend better visual acuity in areas that receive less sunlight than equatorial regions." So it has nothing to do with intellectual prowess then. A larger cranial capacity merely proves that a population has adopted to different light conditions. That's good to know. Samuel George Morton might find this a bit disappointing though, and the author of your third video probably too ;)

The first link doesn't tell me much. I haven't read the book, but according to the synopsis, it deals with early human evolution. The synopsis doesn't say anything about modern day humanity. Which is what this thread is about, if I understood you correctly: The different races or groups of humans in this day and age (correct me if I'm wrong). If Dawkins book mentions anything about this, it would be great if you could quote the relevant part. Or post anything else that gives us an idea of which races there currently are.



CrazyCatLord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,177

13 Apr 2012, 10:06 pm

DuneyBlues wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
DuneyBlues wrote:


I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with this. Race can't be a taxonomy. Taxonomy is the science of identifying and classifying living organisms. Race could be a taxon or a taxonomic rank within the biological taxonomy, but that is not the case. The term has been used in plant taxonomy in the past, but botany has also long replaced it with the species / subspecies taxa.

As for your link, as far as I can tell it has nothing whatsoever to do with your statement. It leads to a review of a book written by Richard Dawkins. I don't think that he is a big supporter of the idea of different human races, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Could you please quote the relevant part of the book? Without a quote, it makes little sense to use it as a reference, don't you think?

PS: I'm still waiting for your reply to my post. Do you have a list of human races, preferably one that was published in this century or the second half of the last century and has some scientific validity? Alternatively, you could post your own hypothesis. I still have no idea what exactly you mean when you talk about races. How many are there? What are they called? What are the classification criteria? We need to know this if we are meant to have a meaningful discussion about this subject, and I can't find any racial classification system for humans in the scientific literature for some weird reason.



( Para 2 ) I'm sorry for shifting the burden of proof on you but the whole book is based on this idea that there are different human races.


If the book is about early human evolution, as the description says, it is probably even about different human species. Until approx. 28,000 years ago, there used to be more than one species of humans. But since Neanderthals and other archaic members of the genus Homo are extinct, only one human species remains, which is Homo sapiens.

This thread is about your attempt to divide H. sapiens, the only human species on this planet, into categorical groups. I'd like to know which groups these are supposed to be. You can't really expect all thread participants to read an entire book first. If you propose that different human races exist, it is up to you to provide us with evidence for this idea, or at least with more information.

Quote:
( PS ) Critics of the concept of "race" in humans usually argue that race is a folk taxonomy rather than a scientific classification , typical.

http://www.americanethnography.com/article.php?id=36

^ This argues for my statement.


Did you read the information next to the article?

ABOUT THIS ARTICLE
“The concept of race” originally appeared in American Anthropologist October, 1962


1962... that's a bit dated, don't you think? Anthropological research didn't stop back then. If you want to read the current scientific consensus on the topic of human races, here is a link to a more recent article of the American Anthropological Association:
http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

This is the important part:

Quote:
"Race" thus evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories. The myths fused behavior and physical features together in the public mind, impeding our comprehension of both biological variations and cultural behavior, implying that both are genetically determined. Racial myths bear no relationship to the reality of human capabilities or behavior. Scientists today find that reliance on such folk beliefs about human differences in research has led to countless errors.

At the end of the 20th century, we now understand that human cultural behavior is learned, conditioned into infants beginning at birth, and always subject to modification. No human is born with a built-in culture or language. Our temperaments, dispositions, and personalities, regardless of genetic propensities, are developed within sets of meanings and values that we call "culture." Studies of infant and early childhood learning and behavior attest to the reality of our cultures in forming who we are.

It is a basic tenet of anthropological knowledge that all normal human beings have the capacity to learn any cultural behavior. The American experience with immigrants from hundreds of different language and cultural backgrounds who have acquired some version of American culture traits and behavior is the clearest evidence of this fact. Moreover, people of all physical variations have learned different cultural behaviors and continue to do so as modern transportation moves millions of immigrants around the world.


But scientific knowledge is never complete or final. So if you have scientifically valid classifications of human subspecies, I'd be happy to review them with an open mind.



Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

13 Apr 2012, 10:14 pm

DuneyBlues wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
UnLoser wrote:
I love the comments about "leftists" towards the end of the second video. :roll:

But anyway, there's no reason to ignore factual differences between races, nor is there anything wrong with preferring the company of your own race. What is wrong is denying a person a job based on stereotypes about their race, treating someone poorly because of their race, and similar actions.



Cultural and linguistic differences are more significant than differences in superficial attributes like skin color, eye shape, hair texture and such like. Humans all over the planet show the same character in intellectual and linguistic development. By the time a young human is a year and a half, with few exceptions, he has a language. That is true everywhere. And all languages are capable of carrying intellectual baggage.

ruveyn


Are we going cherry picking Ruveyn? Since you point to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.


you fail to acknowledge that no one can make a study without first accounting for all the variables,

most people post articles, news stories and some werid amalgam of their impression, none of those do that so in themselves they are worthless.

the variables are what matters.


_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.


Bun
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,356

14 Apr 2012, 4:15 am

Declension wrote:
DuneyBlues wrote:
I really like this fictional story of yours , can I publish it?


Go ahead! I like reading autobiographies.

:lol: I've liked your posts in this thread.


_________________
Double X and proud of it / male pronouns : he, him, his


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Apr 2012, 6:02 am

DuneyBlues wrote:

Are we going cherry picking Ruveyn? Since you point to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.


Your problem is that you will not or can not distinguish between culture (which is a cluster of learned behaviors) and "race" which is a cluster of biologically inherited attributes. Culture is almost everything and "race" is almost nothing.

There are differences between cultures. Some cultures promote reason and science more than others.

ruveyn



Lukecash12
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2012
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,033

14 Apr 2012, 6:19 am

CrazyCatLord wrote:
DuneyBlues wrote:
Race Deniers


I deny the validity of the term race, since it is an informal term that is not part of the zoological taxonomy, the lowest ranks of which are species and subspecies. But I guess this is not the kind of "race denial" that you were referring to :) I also don't recognize any subspecies of Homo sapiens (and neither does the scientific community at this point), which is probably closer to what you had in mind. I don't deny the existence of subspecies, mind you; I'm simply not currently aware of their existence.

This is your chance to change to remedy my ignorance and put forth your hypothesis. Could you compile a list of proposed human subspecies, named according to the principles of zoological nomenclature? Please also add a brief description as to why you feel that each group meets the the criteria for determining subspecific taxa. That would make this discussion a little more scientific and give me a better idea what exactly it is that you are proposing here. Thanks in advance :)

PS: I found the third video quite interesting, considering that the largest brain size among humans has been found in the Inuit people. Do you think there is a correlation between cranial volume / brain size and intelligence? If so, wouldn't that make the Inuit the most intelligent of all human populations?


What we think of as intelligence depends more on the proportions of specific areas of the brain related to cognition and conscious thought. That the Inuits have a slightly larger sized brain, indicates more that they, in general, have more difficult tasks for the brain when it comes to basic homeostasis, requiring them to have generally larger brains. Probably, population genetics and natural selection have selected for a fairly specific intelligence region proportion in the brains of Inuit people, what with their environmental and economic pressures. It's much harder to guess at the probability of intelligence types and proportions when it comes to urban life, though. This is because natural selection is way less of an issue, and population genetics are definitely more randomized. Genetic drift is basically constant in advanced societies, while people like the Inuits stick more to the same region. What stimulates larger proportions of intelligence portions in the brain, when it comes to a group, can be a variety of things (culture and language development being especially promising subjects). I find it fascinating that when we look at humans, we may very well think of natural selection in terms of dating atmospheres around the globe. How dense, diverse, and complex our genetic environments are because of culture!


_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Apr 2012, 6:28 am

Lukecash12 wrote:
How dense, diverse, and complex our genetic environments are because of culture!


Bingo!

ruveyn



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

14 Apr 2012, 6:50 am

There is an argument to evolution here, where one could argue that certain traits would have been more likely to pass on in different settings. Sickle cell anemia which tends to affect people of recent African descent (seeing as we're all technically Africans if you go far enough back) also gives some protection against malaria. It's fully possible that people with different ethic origins possess different traits that manifest in culture and abilities. Wouldn't this be supported by the reported higher median IQs of certain groups of Jewish descent based on reproductive selection?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Apr 2012, 6:57 am

TM wrote:
There is an argument to evolution here, where one could argue that certain traits would have been more likely to pass on in different settings. Sickle cell anemia which tends to affect people of recent African descent (seeing as we're all technically Africans if you go far enough back) also gives some protection against malaria. It's fully possible that people with different ethic origins possess different traits that manifest in culture and abilities. Wouldn't this be supported by the reported higher median IQs of certain groups of Jewish descent based on reproductive selection?


A similar thing is true among certain Asian groups as well. The Chinese and Japanese like to keep their genes "in the family" so to speak. They also emphasis quality in the marriages of their children. The "genetic program" of the Jews in Europe is an accidental consequence of the social prestige given to people learned in Talmud and Torah. The Ashkenazik Jews of Europe never heard of a gene. The the pursuit of Talmudic learning requires a high degree of the ability to think abstractly. When the daughters of the most successful business people are married off to the leading Talmudic scholars, smart children are almost inevitable. But that was not the -intent- of the marriage and mating program.

ruveyn



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

14 Apr 2012, 7:29 am

ruveyn wrote:
TM wrote:
There is an argument to evolution here, where one could argue that certain traits would have been more likely to pass on in different settings. Sickle cell anemia which tends to affect people of recent African descent (seeing as we're all technically Africans if you go far enough back) also gives some protection against malaria. It's fully possible that people with different ethic origins possess different traits that manifest in culture and abilities. Wouldn't this be supported by the reported higher median IQs of certain groups of Jewish descent based on reproductive selection?


A similar thing is true among certain Asian groups as well. The Chinese and Japanese like to keep their genes "in the family" so to speak. They also emphasis quality in the marriages of their children. The "genetic program" of the Jews in Europe is an accidental consequence of the social prestige given to people learned in Talmud and Torah. The Ashkenazik Jews of Europe never heard of a gene. The the pursuit of Talmudic learning requires a high degree of the ability to think abstractly. When the daughters of the most successful business people are married off to the leading Talmudic scholars, smart children are almost inevitable. But that was not the -intent- of the marriage and mating program.

ruveyn


That wasn't my point, the point was that certain traits will influence mating, over time these accumulate and can potentially create "racial" differences. It's not a question of conscious intent but practical reasons.



DuneyBlues
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
Location: Enjoying Solitary Confinement

14 Apr 2012, 8:46 am

CrazyCatLord wrote:
DuneyBlues wrote:
(paragraph 2) Sure there's even a book about it!

http://books.google.ca/books/about/The_ ... edir_esc=y

( PS portion ) A simple google is all you need :)

http://news.discovery.com/human/brain-s ... 10726.html


The second link is very helpful, thanks :)

Quote: "The larger brains and eyeballs lend better visual acuity in areas that receive less sunlight than equatorial regions." So it has nothing to do with intellectual prowess then. A larger cranial capacity merely proves that a population has adopted to different light conditions. That's good to know. Samuel George Morton might find this a bit disappointing though, and the author of your third video probably too ;)

The first link doesn't tell me much. I haven't read the book, but according to the synopsis, it deals with early human evolution. The synopsis doesn't say anything about modern day humanity. Which is what this thread is about, if I understood you correctly: The different races or groups of humans in this day and age (correct me if I'm wrong). If Dawkins book mentions anything about this, it would be great if you could quote the relevant part. Or post anything else that gives us an idea of which races there currently are.


Consider the following informal inductive argument which corrects your error of concluding that parts represent the entire whole ( or the fallacy of composition):
---
The brain is complex due to their being many non-cerebral parts (the eyeballs) which are dependent on the other parts of the brain (lets say, unknown)

I don’t know about the unknown but I only know about the eyeballs

Because of this I will not understand what the eyeballs are dependent on

Therefore I will not understand how complex the brain is
---
Also , I have evidence showing that race is a valued taxonomy by scientists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_CgstmkuOE
From 3:28 to the rest of the video


_________________
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain


Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

14 Apr 2012, 12:46 pm

So far there has not been a single hypothesis presented with any real supporting evidence by "racial realists". Linking to book reviews and questionable Youtube videos is not evidence. Race is not a recognized taxonomical subgroup. There is only one species of Homo Sapiens on the planet right now.


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

14 Apr 2012, 1:18 pm

The first thing that has to be done really is to move away from the term "race" and use something like "evolutionary genetic variation in homo sapiens". The second thing to do be done is to take the racists, IE people who hold the belief that one set of genes is more valuable than another set of genes based on what is observable by the naked eye only and the people who see racism everywhere, stick them on an Island and let them beat each other to death.

Then, the rest of us can sit down and have a rational discussion based around the topic of genetic variations within human beings. Pretty much everyone agrees that the reason why we have different skin colors is due to adaptation, the same thing with body hair, so is it unreasonable to suspect that there may be other differences as well? Some that stem from natural selection and some from cultural selection?



CloudLayer
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 308

14 Apr 2012, 2:13 pm

Race is a construct. How would you define these twins? If a policeperson were stopping them and writing a description of each, one would most probably be listed as black and the other as white (let's assume they've grown up). Police as is the case with most of society does not stop and ask a stranger about their parentage, heritage, genetics, they judge themselves based on what they see, and in this case they if they made a judgment like police do would judge wrong. This isn't an isolated "strange case" either. It's just a hard-to-ignore one given the tradition of seeing "difference" in terms of skin color variation and a few other traits. Physical differences tell you basically nothing. This is of particular interest to me because I come from a "racially admixed" tribe with heritages from three continents, and noticeable differences in appearance even from sibling to sibling are common, so that to eyes trained to label "race" based on physical markers, one sibling will look and be judged Race A, another will be judged Race B, another Race C, another some other race.

Image

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/ ... 68x593.jpg

There's no evidence that on the human genome skin color or other traits are inextricable from intelligence predisposition or other traits.

If a woman with very light skin, straight blonde hair and blue eyes who scores high on intelligence tests has children with a man with very light skin, straight blond hair, and blue eyes who scores low on intelligence tests, and some of their kids end up scoring low on intelligence tests and some high, no one would attribute it to their father's whiteness. Change the father to very dark skin, dark brown eyes and highly curly dark brown/black hair however and "racial realists" would link intelligence to race (as they already do). As I've already mentioned these hypothetical adults based on their physical descriptions could viably be closely related (hopefully not if they're having kids together, but just saying) and of the same racial description. What is wrong with this picture? "Race" is being defined in order to keep whiteness culturally privileged. I am referring to cultural privilege so often lately because a lot of people act as if it doesn't exist.