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why I have problems with anti-theism... to put it simply

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AdamAdam
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21 Apr 2012, 8:55 pm

Reptillian wrote:
Judging from homophobic atheists that do exists and Stalin era, I say those two examples is all I need to point out to say that the bigotry level isn't going to change in a drastic level. Also, keep in mind that religion can be a cover-up excuse for war when there are better reason to start a war such as the desire to resources and domination.....


As I said above, bigotry would still exist, but I can't believe anyone can seriously deny that there would likely be a hell of a lot less homophobia in the world without religion. And, as I also said above, the danger with religious bigotry is that it is "acceptable." For example it's seen as perfectly ok for a Christian to refuse to work with a gay person on religious grounds than it would be if any other homophobic person did so without religious reasons



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21 Apr 2012, 8:56 pm

Sure getting rid of religion might reduce homophobia but so could reforming religion.



AdamAdam
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21 Apr 2012, 8:57 pm

Joker wrote:
I think you are just singleing out those who are christian their are a lot of religions you could bring up as a example.


Um, no. I was talking about bigotry that is accepted be society, and in the society I live in (I am in the UK), that is predominantly Christian homophobia. I'm not talking about gays getting hanged in Iran or anything.



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21 Apr 2012, 8:58 pm

AdamAdam wrote:
Reptillian wrote:
There is no scientific evidence to make a logical conclusion on god's existance meaning that god do not exist is equally as valid as god do exist because there is no data to back up these two claims.


This is ridiculous. Just becuase something cannot be disproven (and by the nature of it, God is obviously one of those things) doesn't mean it's equally valid to claim it does exist. You can't prove fairies don't fly out of my arse, as you've never investigated my arse. Does that mean I'm just as valid as you are in claiming that they do?

Not being able to prove God does not exist does not mean we should give equal credit to the possibility that it DOES. The likelihood of it is low enough for me to be able to say that the chances are he DOESN'T exist.

And I know of Spinoza, thanks


Let us use a hypothetical scenario. Someone stated that there is a said hypothetical living animal inside a certain area. You see that area though everything is covered to the point where you can't make a conclusion off it without getting inside to observe it. How rational it is to make a conclusion on the validity of the claim without ever investigating the claim? You can't make any conclusion with no observation to back things up.

And you shown no evidence to show that he doesn't provided as you could not disprove every variation of the definition of god since there are literally infinity including the Spinoza God which is not anthropomorphic. So your claim is worth s**t.



Last edited by Reptillian on 21 Apr 2012, 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Apr 2012, 8:58 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Sure getting rid of religion might reduce homophobia but so could reforming religion.


Religious reform takes a long time, if possible, and frequently unpopular. It is probably even more difficult now that communication between adherents worldwide is so fast and accessible. The internet means old and/or stupid ideas take a long time do die


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21 Apr 2012, 9:02 pm

Reptillian wrote:
And you shown no evidence to show that he doesn't provided as you could not disprove every variation of the definition of god since there are literally infinity including the Spinoza God which is not anthropomorphic. So your claim is worth sh**.


Burden of proof is on those who claim a god exists. Of course I can't prove they don't, but how likely is it? There are also plenty of logical explanations for many religious beliefs and for their origins (mainly human ignorance at the time).

Clearly there is no way of proving there is no god, but considering the lack of evidence for it, and the countless different gods there have been throughout human history, I treat it as about as likely as the tooth fairy



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21 Apr 2012, 9:02 pm

AdamAdam wrote:
Joker wrote:
I think you are just singleing out those who are christian their are a lot of religions you could bring up as a example.


Um, no. I was talking about bigotry that is accepted be society, and in the society I live in (I am in the UK), that is predominantly Christian homophobia. I'm not talking about gays getting hanged in Iran or anything.


You live in the UK a lot of Muslims live their to not just Christians you really do like to just blame it all on one faith very single minded I must say.



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21 Apr 2012, 9:03 pm

The lack of evidence does not suggest it's absence and there are many things that were once thought off with no evidence until it is discovered. So based on this observation, claiming the probability is next to irrational. And you're still implying that god=what most people see god such as... When there is nature=god viewpoints which is still a valid definition of god.



Last edited by Reptillian on 21 Apr 2012, 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AdamAdam
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21 Apr 2012, 9:04 pm

Joker wrote:
AdamAdam wrote:
Joker wrote:
I think you are just singleing out those who are christian their are a lot of religions you could bring up as a example.


Um, no. I was talking about bigotry that is accepted be society, and in the society I live in (I am in the UK), that is predominantly Christian homophobia. I'm not talking about gays getting hanged in Iran or anything.


You live in the UK a lot of Muslims live their to not just Christians you really do like to just blame it all on one faith very single minded I must say.


A lot of Muslims yes, but their homophobia isn't as accepted as Christian homophobia because they are not the majority (and also because of bigotry towards them - another example of religion dividing people unnecessarily)



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21 Apr 2012, 9:04 pm

AdamAdam wrote:
Reptillian wrote:
Judging from homophobic atheists that do exists and Stalin era, I say those two examples is all I need to point out to say that the bigotry level isn't going to change in a drastic level. Also, keep in mind that religion can be a cover-up excuse for war when there are better reason to start a war such as the desire to resources and domination.....


As I said above, bigotry would still exist, but I can't believe anyone can seriously deny that there would likely be a hell of a lot less homophobia in the world without religion. And, as I also said above, the danger with religious bigotry is that it is "acceptable." For example it's seen as perfectly ok for a Christian to refuse to work with a gay person on religious grounds than it would be if any other homophobic person did so without religious reasons


What I'm saying is there would be the same level of bigotry existing with or without religion, it would just take on another guise.
I live in a majority atheist country and nationalist/racist bigotry is very much acceptable and politically relevant, because regardless of the reason many people are hypocrites.
IMO the root of religious hypocrisy is in our social instincts, it's a twisted form of tribalism.


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21 Apr 2012, 9:05 pm

Vigilans wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Sure getting rid of religion might reduce homophobia but so could reforming religion.


Religious reform takes a long time, if possible, and frequently unpopular. It is probably even more difficult now that communication between adherents worldwide is so fast and accessible. The internet means old and/or stupid ideas take a long time do die


Not so the Proestants went threw a religious reform causing the Catholics to get angry about it those starting the thirty years war all becasue proestants did not bow down to the vatican or the pope.



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21 Apr 2012, 9:05 pm

Reptillian wrote:
The lack of evidence does not suggest it's absence and there are many things that were once thought off with no evidence until it is discovered. So based on this observation, claiming the probability is next to irrational.


So seeing as the lack of evidence of the Tooth Fairy is not enough to deny its existence or claim any probability... does that mean it's just as valid for me to say that it exists? Should I be taken seriously by society and allowed to influence government policy?



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21 Apr 2012, 9:07 pm

Joker wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Sure getting rid of religion might reduce homophobia but so could reforming religion.


Religious reform takes a long time, if possible, and frequently unpopular. It is probably even more difficult now that communication between adherents worldwide is so fast and accessible. The internet means old and/or stupid ideas take a long time do die


Not so the Proestants went threw a religious reform causing the Catholics to get angry about it those starting the thirty years war all becasue proestants did not bow down to the vatican or the pope.


Yeah... how exactly does that refute my point?


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AdamAdam
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21 Apr 2012, 9:09 pm

Joker wrote:
proestants did not bow down to the vatican or the pope.


Yeah, so Henry VIII could divorce his old, useless wife and shag a nice young fertile woman instead... Brilliant religion you've got there :roll:



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21 Apr 2012, 9:10 pm

AdamAdam wrote:
Reptillian wrote:
The lack of evidence does not suggest it's absence and there are many things that were once thought off with no evidence until it is discovered. So based on this observation, claiming the probability is next to irrational.


So seeing as the lack of evidence of the Tooth Fairy is not enough to deny its existence or claim any probability... does that mean it's just as valid for me to say that it exists? Should I be taken seriously by society and allowed to influence government policy?


Going by the investigative sense using knowledge of scientific findings, the tooth fairy cannot logically exists because of physics stating X and Y..... As for whether you should be taken seriously or not, there's more to it than this topic and there's a lot of things that should be considered.



Last edited by Reptillian on 21 Apr 2012, 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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21 Apr 2012, 9:11 pm

AdamAdam wrote:
Joker wrote:
proestants did not bow down to the vatican or the pope.


Yeah, so Henry VIII could divorce his old, useless wife and shag a nice young fertile woman instead... Brilliant religion you've got there :roll:


That's specifically the Church of England, protestants as a whole originated from Martin Luther.

For the record I'm not religious btw :wink:


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