The Salem Witch Trials

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Not so, my friend. Consider Exodus 22:19-20, "Whoever has sexual intercourse with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any gods, except the Lord alone, is to be set apart for destruction."

Just before, Moses lists laws about seducing virgins, then you have this seemingly random law against employing a sorceress. Right after that you have capital offenses for occult practices. It's implied through the subsequent penalties for occult practices that the penalty for even employing a sorceress, much less actually BEING a sorceress, is death.

What about Deuteronomy 18:10? "No one among you is to make his son or daughter pass through the fire, practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery, cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead." The penalty for the Canaanites was deportation or death.

Deuteronomy 18:20, "But the prophet who dares to speak in My name a message I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods--that prophet must die."

Leviticus 20:6, "Whoever turns to mediums or spiritists and prostitutes himself with them, I will turn against that person and cut him off from his people."

Earlier in that same chapter, you have regarding Molech worship (vs. 2): "Say to the Israelites, 'Any Israelite or foreigner living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death...'"

Doesn't matter what form it takes--sacrificing to other gods, prophesying, fortune-telling, child sacrifice, sorcery--I mean, the Bible goes honey-badger on all of them.

The law was apparently understood early in the kingdom to mean that any such person dabbling in the occult was to be put to death. 1 Samuel 28:9, "But the woman said to him, 'You surely know what Saul has done, how he has killed the mediums and spiritists in the land. Why are you setting a trap for me to get me killed?'"

And that doesn't count all the kings of Judah who enacted reforms from time to time to enforce the law. In doing so, they would sometimes put occult practitioners to death.

Say what you will about Exodus 18, but the message is more than just "don't employ witches." The OT repeatedly sends the message that their very presence must not be tolerated anywhere in Israel (and, of course, Judah).

So what you are saying is that anyone who reads an astrology horoscope in the newspaper should be put to death? First of all the punishment has to fit the crime. If the punishment does not fit the crime then the punishment is unjust. Yes if human sacrifice is involved astrology would be a capital offense and that would be true even today. That's the problem with fundamentalists. A boy hits his father and a fundamentalist will immediately try to find a verse in the Bible that supports that this boy should be stoned to death regardless of the severity of the beating, the wishes of the parents, etc.

That is sme what true but some what a straw man statement.

So it is okay to believe that reading a newspaper horoscope deserves the death penalty?

Is it really morally required, though? As Joshua said, "Choose this day who you will serve." The children of Israel were bound by a covenant promise that gave them Canaan as an inheritance. So if they are to live as a holy people dedicated to Yahweh, they have to follow the rules. The nations outside Israel had a choice. Killing witches, therefore, is probably not a MORAL obligation at all. But it is still intolerable in an Israelite theocracy. Yahweh is known more often for punishing His children when they do wrong than for punishing those who don't belong to them. If you don't want to be a child of God, run away from Him. If you ARE truly a child of God, there's nowhere you can hide. Just ask Jonah.

One central point of the nation of Israel is that God Himself was supposed to be their king. Occult practices either misplaced loyalties (rebellion) or arrogantly set the practitioner above God Himself and all the spirit world. That's treachery, and that's intolerable pretty much anywhere.

I don't think Euthyphro applies here. And even if it did, it's a false dilemma.

Witchcraft IS morally wrong. But we still get a choice as to whether we trust in God or the occult. It's up to the people to decide whether they'll tolerate it or not. The people of Israel knew that and ultimately allowed it to go on; they ultimately felt God's wrath, too.

Good point

It's mostly a straw man argument.

If you think that the Bible says a small child should be stoned to death for hitting his father, you obviously don't know the Bible very well. Penalties against one's progeny assume that the parents have tried effective discipline measures to no avail and that the young man poses a real threat to his parents' physical well-being and/or reputation (since in ancient times a damaged reputation could cost a man his livelihood and means of supporting his family). Go back and read EXACTLY what a parent is allowed to accuse their children of doing in order to put the young man to death and tell me this is really the sort of thing you'd accuse a small, innocent child of.

As for reading a horoscope goes: I'd say someone who reads a horoscope probably deserves to die. But I've read a horoscope before just for entertainment, so that means I should be dead, too.

Here's the thing, though. Would the law prescribing death for me reading a horoscope actually apply to ME? Well, I don't live in ancient Israel, and I don't live in a country that puts people to death for those kinds of crimes. So, since I live in this country and not a theocracy, no, I shouldn't be put to death for it and neither should anyone else who lives here. It's up to the people where I live whether to outlaw astrology. You have to take the WHOLE law into account, not just bits and pieces. You can't cherry-pick. You have to examine the law and understand when and where it applies. Even Isaiah implied that Torah was never meant to be a permanent law but to only apply to the earliest Israelite civilization and could be amended or replaced by a later law.

Now, is it immoral? YES. And after understanding that, I avoid astrology, even "just for fun." I wouldn't place my faith in fortune-telling even if I did read those things, but it's also another way I can show God that all my faith is in Him.

As for the punishment fitting the crime: In ancient Israel, the punishment does indeed fit the crime. The crime here is against God Himself. It's rebelliousness and defiance against the Lord. There's no coming back from that. There IS, however, something called due process, which is also from the Lord. The crime always has to be witnessed. So, even if you did these things living as a foreigner in Israel, an Israelite friend would be obligated to warn you about unacceptable practices and give you the opportunity to either leave Israel or stop the practice. If you continued, still knowing what you're doing is wrong, and you were caught in the act by at least two witnesses, then you'd have to be put to death. The reason why is the community is held accountable for the actions of its constituent individuals. If people KNEW what was happening and did nothing about it, then the whole community would be punished for tacitly approving the behavior. Aside from blaspheming and rebelling against God, corporate solidarity was at stake. You not only openly shake your fist at God, you also threaten the well-being of your neighbors. The punishment really does fit the crime in this case.

Moving ahead a few short millennia and away from Israel, different rules apply for a whole lot of different reasons. Now the effort has shifted from sacrifices and strict law to securing the destiny of the individual, and that's where Christians come in. We are not bound by ancient law for righteousness but are rather secured in our faith. In so doing, we obey the spirit of the law: "Love the Lord your God with all your soul, your strength, and your mind." If you accomplish that and show God's love to everyone you know, you don't have to worry about checking off a long list of holiness and purity laws. Strictly speaking, Rabbinic Judaism is absurd because some laws are IMPOSSIBLE to obey. Christians don't need the law to secure salvation, but we accomplish the law if we truly live as God directs.

That is very well said

As was mentioned in this thread, people are still killing people accused of witchcraft (in Africa) but does anyone know why we don't hear about ultra orthodox Jews doing this? Are there no followers of Wicca anywhere the ultra orthodox people of the Jewish faith are to be found?

For the record, I am a skeptical rational agnostic atheist. I am not a Witch. Hopefully, everyone reading this is aware of the fact that most atheists (other than Buddhists) do not believe in anything supernatural. Buddhists, who are technically atheists, do have supernatural beliefs, such as reincarnation. I am not that familiar with the beliefs of the followers of Wicca, but I know they call themselves Witches.

It was common for the church to confiscate the land of convicted "witches".
In fact this was usually the reason that they were accused in the first place.

I often wonder how many churches are built on land stolen from those burned alive by peace loving christians. If there is any justice the offspring should be able to sue for the return of their rightful property.

I also wonder what Jesus would have thought of it all.

[quote="Joker"

True you can believe things when you have Faith I have a lot of faith. How ever it was the Jews that acted Zealous on Gods behalf first not Gentiles.[/quote]

Yes indeed. And the Hebrews got their arses kicked and were forced to live in a land that was not their own. During which time they learned to moderate their behavior a live with people different from themselves. God works in strange ways. The Assyrian and Babylonian exists actually improved the Jews.

Now you will find that on balance Jews are very law abiding and easy to live with folks. Just pay no attention to some of their strange customs. Jews have learned (by and large) at last the main lesson of the Egyptian servitude. Ye shall understand the heart of the Stranger, but you ye were Strangers in Egypt.

It took over 1800 years of getting our arses kicked around to learn to be better "Christians" than the Christians.

ruveyn

Well, there are a lot of things you have to think about here. Theocracies consistently fail because either the will of the people turn against the religion or because religion becomes a sort of routine checklist instead of genuine, heartfelt worship. Samuel said that God wants obedience, not sacrifices. And real obedience that comes from an outpouring of adoration of the Lord is what true religion is all about.

I believe that an earthly Christian theocracy is POSSIBLE. But in order to understand what that would look like, you need to closely examine what the Israelite theocracy look like and draw up similar kinds of patterns. We all know from history that governments only have as much authority as the constituent peoples give it. But at some point we all have to agree that whoever is in charge is in charge and we must respect the rule of law.

For a Christian theocracy to work, you have to have a majority of people who are like-minded enough to set it up and execute it, passing all the relevant legislation, swearing all the right oaths, etc. There has to be near-universal agreement on what wickedness is, what exactly CAN and CANNOT be tolerated, and how to handle deviants. Even with the Ark of the Covenant in ancient Israel, the mercy seat was placed OVER the law. So you have to find a compassionate way of administering justice that really does benefit those seeking justice while also punishing the unrepentant. I say "the unrepentant" because the first job any of us would have is to reason with the deviant person to try to get them back on the right track, followed by a range of consequences they can choose from if they fail to do so.

Following the patterns of the OT, the first step is to get them out of the country or at least set aside an area where they can live and not risk an influence on the faithful. If they refuse to leave or become increasingly belligerent, the death penalty might be the last resort--since you're dedicated to God, you can't tolerate anything that directly opposes God.

If you successfully set up a Christian theocracy by majority rule, you give unbelieving inhabitants a choice--unbelievers either convert and worship God or don't convert and worship not at all (because you can't tolerate worship of any other deity), or they can leave the country or seek refuge in an area specially reserved for them--then you can implement laws to that effect. Witchcraft really would be a prosecutable crime and there's nothing you could do about it. The Church would have every right to confiscate their land. And so it would be unless and until enough people could decide to get rid of the theocracy. The Roman Catholic Church essentially maintained a European theocracy for several centuries. It seems obvious to me that their administration of justice was uneven and unfair, and separation of church and state laws began to take hold and thus took away its political power.

With an effective, fair, and consistent Biblical justice model, what happened with the RC should never have happened. At the same time, the will of the people is consistently fickle, so even if the RC had implemented appropriate Biblical justice, it would have fallen apart eventually anyway, even if it had made it longer.

And you and I both know that likely a lot of people accused of being witches never really were. And people who used the baseless witch accusation to ruin their enemies should have met the same fate of those they got burned at the stake.

The other big problem with a Christian theocracy is, just like with the ancient Israelites, it encourages insular societies, e.g. the Amish. Jesus wanted believers to go out and tell the whole world the gospel that sins had been forgiven and all the world has to do is accept that forgiveness through faith. Theocracies just keep the faithful safe.

As to what Jesus would have thought... Well, there is the story of the prostitute. Jesus knew the law just as well as the scribes and Pharisees. They didn't need a word from Him to put her to death. Jesus didn't even tell them to spare her life. He just said let the blameless cast the first stone. For any nation to hold authority, it has to be able to "cast the stone" and administer fair and equal justice. But Christians are called through this example to exam themselves and really be sure that they are fit for giving unbiased judgment. Jesus wouldn't have said DON'T burn witches. But I think He also would have urged us to try compassion first, punishment last. I think Jesus would have been appalled that Christians falsely accuse each other for material gain.

It's a good thing we don't live in a theocracy, isn't it?

Yes indeed. And the Hebrews got their arses kicked and were forced to live in a land that was not their own. During which time they learned to moderate their behavior a live with people different from themselves. God works in strange ways. The Assyrian and Babylonian exists actually improved the Jews.

Now you will find that on balance Jews are very law abiding and easy to live with folks. Just pay no attention to some of their strange customs. Jews have learned (by and large) at last the main lesson of the Egyptian servitude. Ye shall understand the heart of the Stranger, but you ye were Strangers in Egypt.

It took over 1800 years of getting our arses kicked around to learn to be better "Christians" than the Christians.

ruveyn[/quote]

That is also very true.

The Salem Witch Trials resulted from the kind of religious beliefs this country was founded on. So, for people who scream about how we should keep religion in government, remember that's what came of it.

It was religoius but also political.