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nominalist
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15 Jul 2012, 2:36 pm

Burzum wrote:

Haven't heard that one before.

There are not many far leftists on Wrong Planet.

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ruveyn
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15 Jul 2012, 4:27 pm

nominalist wrote:

The Zeitgeist movement blames global problems on monetization (i.e., the bankers) and the state. However, the basic problem, IMO, is with capitalism.

Consider the alternatives. The only economies that are really working today are the mixed economies with a substantial portion of the activities governed by markets and supply/demand. If you want to see a pure socialist economy in mis-operation and dysfunction visit North Korea. Even the mainland Chinese have embraced the market system for determining what is made and sold in the country.

Socialism has never really worked. The so called socialist economies are really mixed economies. Go to places like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Holland etc and you will find privately owned firms doing good business at home.

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nominalist
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15 Jul 2012, 4:48 pm

ruveyn wrote:

I don't think that there are any viable alternatives today. IMO, the present system is coming down (rapidly). I suspect that what will replace it, at least temporarily, will be cooperative localism.

ruveyn wrote:

Socialism has never really worked. The so called socialist economies are really mixed economies. Go to places like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Holland etc and you will find privately owned firms doing good business at home.

Neither has capitalism. It has resulted in a series of depressions and recessions.

I favor democratic socialism, not dictatorial socialism (totalitarianism). The Nordic countries and Holland are welfare states, not democratic socialist societies.

Burzum
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16 Jul 2012, 12:52 am

nominalist wrote:

Neither has capitalism. It has resulted in a series of depressions and recessions.

It is debatable as to whether the business cycle is caused by free trade itself or government meddling with free trade.

visagrunt
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16 Jul 2012, 10:49 am

Burzum wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Neither has capitalism. It has resulted in a series of depressions and recessions.

It is debatable as to whether the business cycle is caused by free trade itself or government meddling with free trade.

Let's look at free trade in financial services. The biggest single market on the planet is the liquidity market--banks lending to other banks. Yet in this market, the economies of countries with meddlesome governments--like Germany and Canada--fared better in the financial crisis than the economies of the countries who stood back and let the financial services sector trade with minimal interference--like the United Kingdom, the United States and Iceland.

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YippySkippy
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16 Jul 2012, 1:45 pm

All forms of government, all economies - all systems created and controlled by people are subject to corruption. The bigger the system and the longer it has been in place, the worse the corruption. Some systems hold up better than others, but none escape it in the end.

DC
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18 Jul 2012, 4:17 pm

Burzum wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Neither has capitalism. It has resulted in a series of depressions and recessions.

It is debatable as to whether the business cycle is caused by free trade itself or government meddling with free trade.

Who is debating this?

Certainly no economist that I've ever heard of debates this fact.

It is a simple mechanism and the foundation of capitalism,

1) Man needs more money
2) Man gets creative, makes lots money
3) Everybody sees Man has lots of money
4) Everybody copies Man
5) Everybody goes broke as competition drives profits down

This stuff really isn't that hard, no complex debate required...

Awesomelyglorious
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20 Jul 2012, 6:46 am

DC wrote:

Your mechanism is an insufficient description of the business cycle. I cannot be sure which model you're using, or where an economic collapse should occur if competition drives profits down in a particular industry, especially given that a business cycle involves more than reduced profits, but rather large economic disruption involving lay-offs and a lack of hiring.

Also, the debate is pretty common in libertarianism, as a few of them have historically believed this is a matter of government policy. Often they blame money supply issues, but whatever.

nominalist
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20 Jul 2012, 3:57 pm

Burzum wrote:

nominalist wrote:

It is debatable as to whether the business cycle is caused by free trade itself or government meddling with free trade.

I don't think so. The Great Depression (crash of 1929) occurred when there were hardly any regulations.

nominalist
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20 Jul 2012, 3:59 pm

visagrunt wrote:

Yes, countries like Sweden, which have a large social safety net, have faired reasonably well.

Last edited by nominalist on 20 Jul 2012, 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Burzum
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20 Jul 2012, 4:44 pm

DC wrote:

Certainly no economist that I've ever heard of debates this fact.

You haven't heard of many economists.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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30 Aug 2012, 1:08 pm

I liked the movies and now I am going to join or start a local chapter in my community. I agree. Change is needed.

peebo
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04 Sep 2012, 1:46 am

MDD123 wrote:

There's a lot more to the zeitgeist movement than a computer government. There's the idea of people working together for the common good.

quite, but there are many other more rational movements and ideologies that espouse this idea that don't also espouse the other nonsensical and ill-conceived ideas that the zeitgeist movement does.

i mean, as a hypothetical point, the mormons might believe in the idea of people working together for the common good. while i agree with this idea, i wouldn't be rushing to go and sign up. not a particularly convincing argument at all, i'm afraid.

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peebo
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04 Sep 2012, 1:50 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

I liked the movies and now I am going to join or start a local chapter in my community. I agree. Change is needed.

i would recommend researching a little further before you do this.

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