If guns were made illegal everywhere.

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Dillogic
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28 Jul 2012, 6:32 pm

Last I heard, it wasn't any safer before the advent of firearms.

Raptor
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28 Jul 2012, 9:18 pm

Declension wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Speaking for the United States; buying one as a convicted felon or a host of other no-no's is a felony and that's assuming if you get past the NICS check.

Sure, but what does that have to do with what I said? For the third time, what I am saying is that the guns that criminals use overwhelmingly originate from the same sources that civilians use to buy guns. In fact, I totally agree with your implication. The original purchaser of a violent criminal's gun is almost never a violent criminal themselves. They are usually either a straw purchaser for violent criminals, or they are an innocent whose gun will be stolen by violent criminals.

Raptor wrote:

Define forever.

Do you seriously not know what "forever" means? You can look it up if you like.

Raptor wrote:

Again, how long until the existing guns wilt or whatever it is you think they do?

I am not making a policy proposal. I am simply trying to destroy the imaginary distinction that people sometimes make between "innocent people's guns" and "criminals' guns". They are the same guns.

Almost forgot this one.

Quote:

I don't even know where you're going with this or what you're suggesting here.

Quote:

Do you seriously not know what "forever" means? You can look it up if you like.

The term is misused a lot.
Example: "We had to wait forever in the drive-up window at Taco Bell yesterday".
Get it?
My point was the guns typically last much longer than you so there's nothing for you to wait for unless you are immortal or something.

Quote:

I am not making a policy proposal. I am simply trying to destroy the imaginary distinction that people sometimes make between "innocent people's guns" and "criminals' guns". They are the same guns.

Obviously there are no good people's or bad people's guns. A gun is a gun and they do not act they are acted upon. Contrary to some people's irrational beliefs they don't control people's minds, either.

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Dox47
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29 Jul 2012, 2:11 am

If guns were made illegal everywhere, I would quickly become a very wealthy man.

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IDontGetIt
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29 Jul 2012, 3:31 am

Raptor wrote:

IDontGetIt wrote:

Raptor wrote:

IDontGetIt wrote:

I really love the charmingly naive idea that a gun will protect you against someone else who has a gun. Sorry, but guns do not stop other people's bullets. What a gun does is allow you to make a pre-emptive strike against someone else who you think might have a gun - if they already have theirs in their hand, it's too late.
Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to have rational debate about the matter with anybody who strongly associates their national identity, and indeed personal identity, with gun ownership.

This is so naive I don't even know if I should dissect it.

Go on, try. It will likely be the funniest thing on WP today.
By the way, you should probably look up the word "naive" first.

Tell ya what; this seems to be gunz-r-bad season here right now and I think I'm in every one of them in PPR and the current events forum. Just go there and read what others and myself have already written. We've coverd the gist of your beliefs and claims very well.
In fact, these debates have been going on for years from time to time here and we've totally shredded the arguments and claims of the gunz-r-bad crowd every time without fail.

And yes, I know what naive means. If I've learned anything on this forum it's about naivety from blatant examples at ever turn.

Actually, sonny, you are wrong. I intentionally made no statement as to whether I thought guns were good or bad. I am actually interested in the blurry distinction between defense and offense, and the way people on either side of the gun debate never seem to get this right.
Also, does the "go somewhere else and read what others have written" sentiment apply to you as well? Or just to people who are saying things you don't want to hear?

The_Walrus
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29 Jul 2012, 10:02 am

bizboy1 wrote:

This is a lot like "if drugs were illegal, would people do less drugs?". I rest my case.

Except countries like Portugal have legalised drugs and seen rates of usage drop, whereas the country with the most gun crime in the West is the one where it is easiest to get a gun and where rednecks seem to think they have a "right" to a gun :lol:

JanuaryMan
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29 Jul 2012, 10:08 am

If guns were illegal everywhere, would the knowledge of making them let alone their manufacture, trade and sale go away? No.

Raptor
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29 Jul 2012, 10:58 am

IDontGetIt wrote:

Raptor wrote:

IDontGetIt wrote:

Raptor wrote:

IDontGetIt wrote:

This is so naive I don't even know if I should dissect it.

Go on, try. It will likely be the funniest thing on WP today.
By the way, you should probably look up the word "naive" first.

Quote:

The discussions of late go into more than just the guns themselves. I see that you're one of those ones that thinks the individual that defends themselves is just or almost as bad as his attacker. I've seen this here before too.

Quote:

Also, does the "go somewhere else and read what others have written" sentiment apply to you as well? Or just to people who are saying things you don't want to hear?

No, it means I'm not going to go back and re-hash everything for you just to save you from reading it yourself.
Besides, the screen name "IDontGetIt" says a lot about the futility of even trying to tell you anything.

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The_Walrus
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29 Jul 2012, 2:33 pm

Raptor wrote:

I see that you're one of those ones that thinks the individual that defends themselves is just or almost as bad as his attacker.

It depends how far they go. Americans I've argued with on this before seem to think that if someone breaks into your house and runs away when you find them, you are "defending yourself" if you chase after them with a gun and shoot them. That's outright murder and isn't defending yourself at all. The only time shooting someone to kill is acceptable is when you have no other way to prevent a murder occurring. Quite frankly if you don't agree then gtfo of the human race.

Raptor
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29 Jul 2012, 2:49 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Quote:

All Americans you've argued with or some? I don't think I've ever heard someone say that. Maybe they'd like to chase someone down and kill them for stealing from them but saying it and doing it are two entirely different things.

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The only time shooting someone to kill is acceptable is when you have no other way to prevent a murder occurring.

Yes, that's how the law reads and should always read.[/quote]

Quote:

Quite frankly if you don't agree then gtfo of the human race.

Make me

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The_Walrus
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29 Jul 2012, 2:57 pm

Raptor wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Quote:

Definitely not all Americans, a good number of Americans I've spoken to either want guns to be outlawed, or don't particularly care, then there are those who think guns are good despite the deaths they cause but think they should only be used if absolutely necessary. That quote was one guy on Omegle, but I've seen similar expressions from others.

The number of occasions a homeowner shoots someone who breaks into their home is tiny, and I don't think there's any point having one in your home just in case- it's more likely your kids will accidentally be killed by it than you'll need to fend off a burglar with it, let alone someone breaking in actively trying to kill you.

auntblabby
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29 Jul 2012, 3:07 pm

guns are merely a symptom of the human disease.

Raptor
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29 Jul 2012, 3:53 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Quote:

Definitely not all Americans, a good number of Americans I've spoken to either want guns to be outlawed, or don't particularly care,…..

There has been a dramatic rise in gun ownership in the US since 2009. The attitude is more pro-gun now than any other time in generations.

Quote:

…..then there are those who think guns are good despite the deaths they cause but think they should only be used if absolutely necessary. That quote was one guy on Omegle, but I've seen similar expressions from others.

They don’t cause deaths any more than forks and spoons cause obesity. They are tools, not living breathing entities. If a drunk driver runs over someone do you blame the car or the drunk driver?

Quote:

The number of occasions a homeowner shoots someone who breaks into their home is tiny, and I don't think there's any point having one in your home just in case- it's more likely your kids will accidentally be killed by it than you'll need to fend off a burglar with it, let alone someone breaking in actively trying to kill you.

It’s better to have and not need than to need and not have. B&E isn’t so uncommon that it’s safe to be unprepared. Kids can be taught gun safety starting at a very early age and should be if they are valued at all. Even if you don’t have a gun in the house they might encounter one at someone else’s house.
It happens.

Outlawing anything useful or desirable doesn’t work. Passage of a law doesn’t make anything that already exists so commonly suddenly go away.

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The_Walrus
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29 Jul 2012, 4:07 pm

Raptor wrote:

Quote:

They don’t cause deaths any more than forks and spoons cause obesity. They are tools, not living breathing entities. If a drunk driver runs over someone do you blame the car or the drunk driver?

Reductio ad absurdium.

Guns are weapons, not tools like forks or spoons or cars (or alligators). They are designed to kill.

Raptor
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29 Jul 2012, 4:22 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Quote:

They don’t cause deaths any more than forks and spoons cause obesity. They are tools, not living breathing entities. If a drunk driver runs over someone do you blame the car or the drunk driver?

Reductio ad absurdium.

Guns are weapons, not tools like forks or spoons or cars (or alligators). They are designed to kill.

How did gators get into this? A gator acts on it's own. You're grasping at straws now.
Guns are acted upon, they do not act on their own or take control of people's minds.
It could not be any simpler.

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aSKperger
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29 Jul 2012, 4:40 pm

Quote:

Guns are acted upon, they do not act on their own or take control of people's minds.

true, so how do we check if someone is responsible and can possess guns?

Dox47
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29 Jul 2012, 5:39 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

They are designed to kill.

Hi, gun designer here, and, um, you're kinda completely wrong about that. Guns are designed to be accurate, durable, reliable, visually pleasing, etc, but they are not "designed to kill" simply by virtue of being weapons. Guillotines, gibbets, gas chambers, electric chairs, those things are designed to kill, guns are designed to project force according to the will of the wielder, or as I like to say, to propel a lump of lead down a long tube in as straight a line as possible in as mechanically repeatable a way as possible.

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