Any Stalinists around these parts?

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JakobVirgil
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31 Jul 2012, 10:53 pm

nominalist wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

That is true. However he has mined enough quotes to convince me that Fascism far predated Hitler and Il Duce.

Research has nothing to do with providing "quotes."

Then what is it the Harold Bloom does for a living?

I think someone in intellectual history would show what?
That Marxism is Hegelian and Fascism Nietzschean but the ideas of both
go back to the grand poo-bah of nonsense Plato. Noble Lies and such.

I find it easier to look at Practice rather than Ideology.
[most likely cuz I am a Marxist anthropologist or was, Materialist is what we say now.]

I think the Pre-Joe soviet was definitely of the left in practice and intent.
After Joe they regained this to some extant but good ole bushy stache was a bit of a fascist.
Nationalism, Militarism, racism, anti-liberalism, conspiracy theories, scapegoating the whole nine yards.

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Kraichgauer
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31 Jul 2012, 10:54 pm

nominalist wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Not if you go beneath the surface. Il Duce and Hitler started off as men of the Left. Despite their later shifts they remained collectivist to the bone. The essential feature is collectivism, not the ideological gibberish that is employed.

As an academic, I am not interested in big-picture stuff. That is also why the Illuminati conspiracists go off the deep end. I focus on particular situations and try to understand them.

ruveyn wrote:

Read -Liberal Fascism- by Jonah Goldberg.

Oh, so that's where you got the idea. You should know that Goldberg has been widely criticized by legitimate researchers for that view. It is historically unsupportable. The guy allows his own ideology to govern his observations.

I agree with you on Goldberg. In his book, Hitler's Willing Executioners for instance, he condemns the whole of the German Anti-Nazi resistance as essentially Antisemitic and racist simply because one of its members had thought Germany should continue Hitler's racial policies after he was gone. That's a slap in the face to brave men like Klaus Von Stauffenberg, Erwin Rommel. Wilhelm Canaris, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and all the rest who lost their lives trying to free their country - and their world - of Hitler and Nazism. Anyone who knows the biographies of the German resistance knows that they had been inspired by abhorrence by Hitler's racism and mass murder as much as by their desire to save Germany from being destroyed.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

nominalist
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31 Jul 2012, 11:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:

It does when the proto-fascists damn themselves out of their own mouths or pens.

Your entire post consists of innuendo, suggestions of evil intent, and name-calling. There is no way to respond to it.

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nominalist
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31 Jul 2012, 11:09 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Then what is it the Harold Bloom does for a living?

Is that an argument?

JakobVirgil wrote:

I think someone in intellectual history would show what?
That Marxism is Hegelian and Fascism Nietzschean but the ideas of both
go back to the grand poo-bah of nonsense Plato. Noble Lies and such.

Coincidence or synchronicity is not an argument either. Nietzsche had nothing to do with Marxism or Fascism.

JakobVirgil wrote:

I find it easier to look at Practice rather than Ideology.
[most likely cuz I am a Marxist anthropologist or was, Materialist is what we say now.]

Again, that is not an argument. Providing quotes is not practice (praxis).

nominalist
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31 Jul 2012, 11:10 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Bill,

Yep, Goldberg's views are magical and conspiratorial.

Kraichgauer
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31 Jul 2012, 11:17 pm

nominalist wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Then what is it the Harold Bloom does for a living?

Is that an argument?

JakobVirgil wrote:

I think someone in intellectual history would show what?
That Marxism is Hegelian and Fascism Nietzschean but the ideas of both
go back to the grand poo-bah of nonsense Plato. Noble Lies and such.

Coincidence or synchronicity is not an argument either. Nietzsche had nothing to do with Marxism or Fascism.

JakobVirgil wrote:

I find it easier to look at Practice rather than Ideology.
[most likely cuz I am a Marxist anthropologist or was, Materialist is what we say now.]

Again, that is not an argument. Providing quotes is not practice (praxis).

Nietzsche in fact held Antisemites in contempt - even going to the extent of petitioning Kaiser Wilhelm to banish the the whole lot of them from Germany. After he had died, his sister and brother-in-law, both of whom he had despised for their Antisemitism, had added Anti-Jewish passages to his last, unfinished book. In later years, the Nazis had had only a shallow understanding of Nietzsche's work.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JakobVirgil
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31 Jul 2012, 11:21 pm

nominalist wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

It does when the proto-fascists damn themselves out of their own mouths or pens.

Your entire post consists of innuendo, suggestions of evil intent, and name-calling. There is no way to respond to it.

What is your rubric for Fascism? Is the genetics of one's intellectual training enough?
I.E. Fascism and Communism are traditions passed down and modified analogous to Christianity and Islam. or is it a practice or complex of practices that can be separated from their namesakes and actually predate them? Like sufis and gnostics.

I say we use Eco's [Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt] not only because Eco is as cute as a button but because I think he nails it.

Those 14 points should be the metric for solving this issue.

it is a good practice to apply them to ones self to find out how black our shirts are.

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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

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AspieRogue

01 Aug 2012, 12:06 am

ruveyn wrote:

nominalist wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Sure if you are playing teams.

Nope. Stalin and Mussolini had entirely different ideologies.

Don't believe everything you read, heebro!

I'm so sick of stupid neoconservatives trying to argue that Hitler was a liberal. His goal was to annihilate the middle class by getting the rich and the poor to team up against them.

Kraichgauer
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01 Aug 2012, 12:39 am

AspieRogue wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

nominalist wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Sure if you are playing teams.

Nope. Stalin and Mussolini had entirely different ideologies.

Actually, when Nationalist-Socialism first started out, they had tried to encompass both the right and the left. Of course, only one philosophy could win out - and that culminated in the Night of the Long Knives, where Hitler and Himmler - who had represented the far right - purged the Brown Shirt left wing of the party. Individuals such as Joseph Goebbels, who had started out as a socialist, had changed his whole political philosophy as he was so enamored with Hitler.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

AspieRogue

01 Aug 2012, 12:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

AspieRogue wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

nominalist wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Sure if you are playing teams.

Nope. Stalin and Mussolini had entirely different ideologies.

Tis true. Hitler however, was always a far rightist.

Kraichgauer
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01 Aug 2012, 12:53 am

AspieRogue wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

AspieRogue wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

nominalist wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Sure if you are playing teams.

Nope. Stalin and Mussolini had entirely different ideologies.

Tis true. Hitler however, was always a far rightist.

My point exactly. As I recall, Inuyasha had tried to argue the contrary, making use of drivel from far right internet sites.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

nominalist
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01 Aug 2012, 2:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Yep, that was about the only thing he had in common with Rudolf Steiner.

nominalist
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01 Aug 2012, 2:51 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

What is your rubric for Fascism? Is the genetics of one's intellectual training enough?

Fascism is the system created in Italy. Other systems can, by analogy, sometimes be called neo-fascist.

JakobVirgil wrote:

I.E. Fascism and Communism are traditions passed down and modified analogous to Christianity and Islam. or is it a practice or complex of practices that can be separated from their namesakes and actually predate them? Like sufis and gnostics.

That is a conspiracy theory.

nominalist
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01 Aug 2012, 2:54 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

How so? I was completely transparent in my methods and intent.
One really can not expect more honesty than that.

Transparency and honesty are not the same.

Kraichgauer
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01 Aug 2012, 3:08 am

nominalist wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Yep, that was about the only thing he had in common with Rudolf Steiner.

I just looked him up on Wikipedia. His picture looks a bit like Jeremy Irons.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Jacoby
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01 Aug 2012, 3:51 am

Defining Hitler as far right shows the flaw in defining politics in a right-left spectrum. It's a farce, Hitler brought statism and collectivism to its very extreme just Stalin's Russia did. Instead of the proletariat and class, fascism focuses more on the state or race but effectively it's pretty close to same.

Associating liberalism with fascism is just as bad. I didn't read Jonah Goldberg's book but liberalism as defined in the modern American sense is so warped and twisted from what liberalism actually is that it nobody knows what up or down is anymore. I'm sure Jonah Goldberg was using the modern definition of American liberalism which is used interchangeably with progressivism and in that case I think I would agree with his premise.

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