Was Joesph Stalin a Fascist? discussion and poll

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JakobVirgil
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03 Aug 2012, 10:18 am

Guppy wrote:

He was no Fascist, as he has no connection to the ideological and historical current that is Fascism. Certainly an extremely authoritarian, militaristic, genocidal, Orwellian Leninist, but no Fascist.

As an active anti-Fascist, I believe that calling things that aren't actually Fascist decreases the importance of the term, and its true danger.

I assume not calling things fascist when they are also poses a danger?
What definition of fascism do you use?
It was to be broader than intellectual children of Gentile ,right?

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Guppy
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03 Aug 2012, 11:09 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

Guppy wrote:

I assume not calling things fascist when they are also poses a danger?
What definition of fascism do you use?
It was to be broader than intellectual children of Gentile ,right?

I'm not that good with definitions, but I believe Wikipedia puts it best, to be entirely fair.

edgewaters
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03 Aug 2012, 11:22 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

Back to the question was the Stalin's dandelion he called a rose fascism?

No ... one of the hallmarks of fascism (even if you're extending it to Franco and Pinochet) which distinguishes it from other forms of totalitarianism is that it does not feature a command economy.

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I think he fits if one can call his adherence to "Marxism" a traditionalist.

Communism was established but not as a tradition, in Stalin's day. It hadn't been around in even a single previous generation. Tradition is what your granddad and great-granddad did.

Quote:

The new communists of Russia certainly seem to idealize communism in the way.

One could definately say that neo-communism (for lack of a better term) is reactionary.

JakobVirgil
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03 Aug 2012, 11:40 am

Guppy wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Guppy wrote:

I assume not calling things fascist when they are also poses a danger?
What definition of fascism do you use?
It [h]as to be broader than intellectual children of Gentile ,right?

I'm not that good with definitions, but I believe Wikipedia puts it best, to be entirely fair.

I have a touch of the dysgraphia on top of my aspergers.
sometimes things make it through my work around.

Quote:

Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek elevation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][4] Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.

So all we have to do is pin some Eugenics on uncle Joe and he fits.
(and also show that his socialism in one country did not really have a real motive of turning in to international revolution).

The Eugenics thing is actually a great argument against including him in the Dark brotherhood.
How can one be a Eugenist and not believe in natural selection?

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/primate-diaries/2011/11/10/stalins-ape-man-superwarriors/ this link helps the opposition. :oops:

This one is a weak defense of the Joe is a blackshirt.

I will have to say if Eugenics is necessary to make a fascist then Joe might be off the hook.

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edgewaters
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03 Aug 2012, 11:55 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

Quote:

Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek elevation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][4] Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.

I will have to say if Eugenics is necessary to make a fascist then Joe might be off the hook.

It's more than eugenics (and eugenics isn't even necessary to the definition of fascism, nor was it present in most of the historical examples).

I don't know how much you know about the demographics of Russia, but it is anything but a country "united by common ancestry". The Soviet Union even less so, with over 100 distinct ethnic groups (excluding immigrants). It certainly wasn't an organic union, either.

How on earth could this ever be united by any notion of common ancestry?:

JakobVirgil
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03 Aug 2012, 12:03 pm

edgewaters wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Quote:

Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek elevation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][4] Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.

I will have to say if Eugenics is necessary to make a fascist then Joe might be off the hook.

It's more than eugenics (and eugenics isn't even necessary to the definition of fascism, nor was it present in most of the historical examples).

I don't know how much you know about the demographics of Russia, but it is anything but a country "united by common ancestry". The Soviet Union even less so, with over 100 distinct ethnic groups (excluding immigrants).

How on earth could this ever be united by any notion of common ancestry?:

I admit I am on the ropes here but common ancestry is always a myth take american White Nationalists. Greeks and the Irish being the same thing but Argentines not? Italians are white but Mexicans aren't? Although the whole of the country is "russian" Russian only refers to one Ethnic group slavs.

Was Joe a Slavic supremacist? if yes I think I may be able to save this sinking ship. :lol:

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Guppy
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03 Aug 2012, 12:12 pm

Quote:

So all we have to do is pin some Eugenics on uncle Joe and he fits.

My point here is that Fascism is a very specific historical and ideological current. Stalin had no connection to said current beyond similarities in his doings, and is thus not a Fascist.

JakobVirgil
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03 Aug 2012, 12:18 pm

Guppy wrote:

Quote:

So all we have to do is pin some Eugenics on uncle Joe and he fits.

My point here is that Fascism is a very specific historical and ideological current. Stalin had no connection to said current beyond similarities in his doings, and is thus not a Fascist.

Then there are no fascists today other than the northern league?
the BNP, NSM and such are also off the hook too?

I am going to stick with Umberto Eco's definition and keep on my toes.
He includes racism but not eugenics.

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Tequila
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03 Aug 2012, 1:12 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Then there are no fascists today other than the northern league?

I wouldn't call Lega Nord fascists. They seem to be more of a catch-all regionalist party with a fair few bigoted so-and-sos in them rather than fascist. If you want to look at an Italian political party more deserving of the moniker, have a look at, say, Tricolour Flame.

In fact, I don't think it's useful to brand political parties "fascist" in this day and age, which is why I avoid doing it.

JakobVirgil wrote:

the BNP

They're a***holes but the North West of England - i.e. where I live - is their heartland.

JakobVirgil
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03 Aug 2012, 1:18 pm

Tequila wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Then there are no fascists today other than the northern league?

JakobVirgil wrote:

the BNP

They're a***holes but the North West of England - i.e. where I live - is their heartland.

the Tricolor flame it is then.
I am an anti-fascist but I am not worried much by fascist themed hobby parties the BNP the NSM.
but by fascist ideas showing up in mainstream politics. anti-immigration, jingoism, code-word racism, anti-welfare etc.

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Tequila
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03 Aug 2012, 1:20 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

I am an anti-fascist but I am not worried much by fascist themed hobby parties the BNP the NSM.

Who are the NSM?

Also, what about, say, Hungary's Jobbik?

And being "anti-immigration" isn't fascist at all. Anti-mass immigration opinions are held by people across the political spectrum here in Europe.

Guppy
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03 Aug 2012, 1:27 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Guppy wrote:

Quote:

So all we have to do is pin some Eugenics on uncle Joe and he fits.

My point here is that Fascism is a very specific historical and ideological current. Stalin had no connection to said current beyond similarities in his doings, and is thus not a Fascist.

Then there are no fascists today other than the northern league?
the BNP, NSM and such are also off the hook too?

Lega Nord, Neo-Nazis, Baath, South American Falangists, Jobbik, Golden Dawn, etc. All those are part of the Fascist ideology, influenced and inspired it. Stalin, however, had no connection to it.

JakobVirgil
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03 Aug 2012, 1:32 pm

Tequila wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

I am an anti-fascist but I am not worried much by fascist themed hobby parties the BNP the NSM.

NSM = National Socialist Movement = American Nazi Larpers.

Jobbik is scary.

being anti-immigration is not fascist per se but in Arizona is is just code for hating Chicanos who have made a large fraction of the population since it was made a state.
Most of the "illegals" in AZ are citizens some families for longer then the "whites" that want them sent "home".

Analogous but with reversed power relationships to folks who want the Irish protestants to go back to Britain.

I am a immigration libertarian I don't think the benefits of the flow of goods will be largely and universally beneficial unless we also allow free-flow of labor.

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edgewaters
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03 Aug 2012, 2:00 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

I admit I am on the ropes here but common ancestry is always a myth

That's why fascism tends to be associated with knuckle-draggers.

Quote:

Was Joe a Slavic supremacist? if yes I think I may be able to save this sinking ship. :lol:

Heh, sorry, no he was Georgian (and something of a patriot in his youth, too). They're not Slavs, they're Kartvelians.

JakobVirgil
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03 Aug 2012, 2:34 pm

edgewaters wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

I admit I am on the ropes here but common ancestry is always a myth

That's why fascism tends to be associated with knuckle-draggers.

Quote:

Was Joe a Slavic supremacist? if yes I think I may be able to save this sinking ship. :lol:

Heh, sorry, no he was Georgian (and something of a patriot in his youth, too). They're not Slavs, they're Kartvelians.

Damn Damn double damn. :lol:

I may have to throw in the towel here.
He was racist though right?
The Doctors' Plot ?

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edgewaters
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03 Aug 2012, 2:57 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

He was racist though right?
The Doctors' Plot ?

Maybe ... but he went after any ethnic group that got too nationalist, because he was worried about fascism and/or separatists, and he didn't seem to play racial favourites about it - he came down hard on the Georgians, his own people, for instance. Because of their nationalist streak. Which he once shared ....

But that particular case is a hard one to decide. Did he think Jews in the USSR were getting too nationalist, was there too much Zionism? Or was he an anti-semite? It's kind of hard to say, really. It doesn't make sense to say he was worried about separatism, but on the other hand, Zionism was a form of nationalism and it was popular there at the time, and he was an equally opportunity oppressor of nationalists. Tough call indeed.

Ah wait! He was not equal opportunity - he never bothered the Russians about nationalism, he encouraged it during the war! Perhaps he was a fascist during the war years, not at heart but as a strategy to win the war. He stopped after the war though, just as he enlisted the Orthodox church during the war and went right back to repressing them after (and there's the traditionalism, too). So it looks like he did dabble in fascism for a time.

I have this feeling that he never lost any sleep over all the people he sent to be tortured, killed, and erased from memory by Beria; but I bet those "Mother Russia" posters and "Great Patriotic War" slogans had him tossing and turning all night.

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