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AngelRho
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12 Sep 2012, 6:27 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Add to this the fact that the Bible has been through several translations,

That's not very factual. Every reliable translation out there uses pretty much the same source documents--the Masoretic Text (though some translators disagree on some portions of the text as to whether the MT is more reliable or whether the Septuagint is to be favored...sometimes having an alternate but more recent ancient source helps clarify meaning to archaic or idiomatic expressions. Some scholars might even debate on which source is older, the MT or the LXX. But the point is modern translations typically go back to these and other ancient manuscripts. These sources are within 95% agreement with each other, which that questionable 5% being things like scribal errors--and I mean errors like confusing similar letters for each other and the ancient equivalent of misplacing a decimal as well as questioning whether some texts originated as margin notes, etc. It's a TINY portion of the entire text, and it never changes the meaning of the body of work). There are some translations I find questionable: The latest NIV, the Good News Bible, the Message, and (of course) the NWT. The NKJV is basically a King Jimmy with updated language conventions, making it an easier read, and also includes source material that was unavailable at the time the Authorized Version was written. As I've often said, I like the HSCB, and I've heard really good things about the ESV. I don't think the "several translations" bit is even really all that true, nor does the fact that numerous translations exist really make all that much difference as to whether the Bible is true or not. It just makes a difference when we're talking about a specific translation, especially if the translators have an agenda (which they do in at least one case).

YippySkippy wrote:
and a belief that it was not divinely inspired, and you can see why Lutherans have no trouble taking much of the Bible with a grain of salt.

If it's not divinely inspired, what's the value in accepting it as a guiding text? If you can't believe it, why use it? If the Bible is in error, then you have the problem of Jesus not being who He claimed to be and who His disciples claimed He was and who we claim Him to be. Christianity could just as easily be wrong, so what point is there in even adopting Christianity as your personal faith? If the Bible IS divinely inspired, then you have a strong case in favor of Christ.


My own Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does take the Bible more literally than say the more theologically liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America does, but no mainstream Lutherans in either church body takes Revelations for a major book meant to be taken word for word. We are of the opinion that most of the book has already occurred in the 1st century AD. If evangelicals feel that means we aren't real Christians, then that's they're business. They already seem to think we're going to hell for practicing infant baptism, and for believing in the real presence in the Lords Supper.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, THIS evangelical would concur with your idea that your ultimate destination is between you and God. I prefer not to encourage disunity among Christians with differing doctrinal perspectives, but I do take issue with the idea that a group can claim the Bible as a sacred text AND YET not take it seriously. Something just struck me as odd about YS's post, so I hope you don't think that was aimed at you directly.

Incidentally, if I had to choose between your church and so-called Evangelical Lutheran--well, I just don't think I'd find myself very well at ease with the ELC. I admire the preference of some of them for a more progressive worship style, but I think there is more to gain from Christian wisdom than going to church for your entertainment. I actually found a highly attractive staff position with an ELC, but I just couldn't bring myself to apply for it. There was also another similar job for a growing non-denom, but I just couldn't bring myself to apply for it because the lead pastor is a little too cozy with a certain unnamed mega-church televangelist (*cough* *cough* *JoelOsteen* *cough*). I also don't like the "relevance" angle this guy was going for. Sure, scripture IS relevant to us today, but it is relevant in how God wants us to live our lives, not in manipulating God into giving us whatever we want (veiled Prosperity teaching). Probably every denomination is affected by these attitudes, and the obvious ones are the ones that rationalize biblical teachings to incorporate whatever self-destructive behavior you like, along with hollow worship that amounts to little more than just saying the right words, clapping applauding at the right times, and seeing how loud and rowdy they can get. There are even some "progressive" Baptist churches out there that just make me scratch my head and wonder how in the world they got accepted into their local association.



UDAspie13
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12 Sep 2012, 9:01 pm

I am not misunderstood. Really, because I have a way to avoid this - draw as little attention to yourself AS POSSIBLE.
Secondly, I'm only 13 so they don't really expect me to contribute a whole lot.
I do feel rejected on occasion. Ignored. Blown off. Like I'm an annoyance that people are just putting up with.
My church is EXTREMELY SMALL. Like 40 people in the congregation on a busy day.
The population is either kids under 11 or people over 17 and 60. Either way, I don't fit in. Too mature for the kid stuff (especially if it involves pretending - shudder.)
Too immature for the older crowd. Or rather I just lack experience. I've never gone to a real school except for second and third grade. I do not plan on returning. As in ever.
I am the only non-coffee drinker. A nonissue for the most part. I just find the taste and smell of coffee... revolting.



Kraichgauer
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12 Sep 2012, 9:33 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Add to this the fact that the Bible has been through several translations,

That's not very factual. Every reliable translation out there uses pretty much the same source documents--the Masoretic Text (though some translators disagree on some portions of the text as to whether the MT is more reliable or whether the Septuagint is to be favored...sometimes having an alternate but more recent ancient source helps clarify meaning to archaic or idiomatic expressions. Some scholars might even debate on which source is older, the MT or the LXX. But the point is modern translations typically go back to these and other ancient manuscripts. These sources are within 95% agreement with each other, which that questionable 5% being things like scribal errors--and I mean errors like confusing similar letters for each other and the ancient equivalent of misplacing a decimal as well as questioning whether some texts originated as margin notes, etc. It's a TINY portion of the entire text, and it never changes the meaning of the body of work). There are some translations I find questionable: The latest NIV, the Good News Bible, the Message, and (of course) the NWT. The NKJV is basically a King Jimmy with updated language conventions, making it an easier read, and also includes source material that was unavailable at the time the Authorized Version was written. As I've often said, I like the HSCB, and I've heard really good things about the ESV. I don't think the "several translations" bit is even really all that true, nor does the fact that numerous translations exist really make all that much difference as to whether the Bible is true or not. It just makes a difference when we're talking about a specific translation, especially if the translators have an agenda (which they do in at least one case).

YippySkippy wrote:
and a belief that it was not divinely inspired, and you can see why Lutherans have no trouble taking much of the Bible with a grain of salt.

If it's not divinely inspired, what's the value in accepting it as a guiding text? If you can't believe it, why use it? If the Bible is in error, then you have the problem of Jesus not being who He claimed to be and who His disciples claimed He was and who we claim Him to be. Christianity could just as easily be wrong, so what point is there in even adopting Christianity as your personal faith? If the Bible IS divinely inspired, then you have a strong case in favor of Christ.


My own Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does take the Bible more literally than say the more theologically liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America does, but no mainstream Lutherans in either church body takes Revelations for a major book meant to be taken word for word. We are of the opinion that most of the book has already occurred in the 1st century AD. If evangelicals feel that means we aren't real Christians, then that's they're business. They already seem to think we're going to hell for practicing infant baptism, and for believing in the real presence in the Lords Supper.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, THIS evangelical would concur with your idea that your ultimate destination is between you and God. I prefer not to encourage disunity among Christians with differing doctrinal perspectives, but I do take issue with the idea that a group can claim the Bible as a sacred text AND YET not take it seriously. Something just struck me as odd about YS's post, so I hope you don't think that was aimed at you directly.

Incidentally, if I had to choose between your church and so-called Evangelical Lutheran--well, I just don't think I'd find myself very well at ease with the ELC. I admire the preference of some of them for a more progressive worship style, but I think there is more to gain from Christian wisdom than going to church for your entertainment. I actually found a highly attractive staff position with an ELC, but I just couldn't bring myself to apply for it. There was also another similar job for a growing non-denom, but I just couldn't bring myself to apply for it because the lead pastor is a little too cozy with a certain unnamed mega-church televangelist (*cough* *cough* *JoelOsteen* *cough*). I also don't like the "relevance" angle this guy was going for. Sure, scripture IS relevant to us today, but it is relevant in how God wants us to live our lives, not in manipulating God into giving us whatever we want (veiled Prosperity teaching). Probably every denomination is affected by these attitudes, and the obvious ones are the ones that rationalize biblical teachings to incorporate whatever self-destructive behavior you like, along with hollow worship that amounts to little more than just saying the right words, clapping applauding at the right times, and seeing how loud and rowdy they can get. There are even some "progressive" Baptist churches out there that just make me scratch my head and wonder how in the world they got accepted into their local association.


I can't stand Olsteen and his "prosperity gospel" either. He doesn't even teach about Christ's death and resurrection from the pulpit - just how to get rich.
Incidentally, it's not a matter that we don't take the Bible seriously, but we just happen to have a very different take on the contents of Revelations, among other things.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Danimal
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13 Sep 2012, 1:22 am

I think it's curious that so many Christians want a thousand year kingdom ruled by Christ. We Americans have a federal republic. We have been free from kings, queens, and an unelected nobility since 1783. We elect our Presidents, Senators, representatives, our state officials. We even elect our county treasurers and coronors. Our Constitution is the oldest working constitution in the world. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to give all this up in return for a kingdom and an all-powerful king. The divine right of kings ended a long time ago.



AngelRho
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13 Sep 2012, 9:41 am

Danimal wrote:
I think it's curious that so many Christians want a thousand year kingdom ruled by Christ. We Americans have a federal republic. We have been free from kings, queens, and an unelected nobility since 1783. We elect our Presidents, Senators, representatives, our state officials. We even elect our county treasurers and coronors. Our Constitution is the oldest working constitution in the world. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to give all this up in return for a kingdom and an all-powerful king. The divine right of kings ended a long time ago.

When monarchies arose after the fallout of the broken Roman Empire, it was a means to an end. Rome couldn't protect the people anymore and had never exercised authority over the northern tribes. This left a power vacuum, and within that arose strong warrior leaders who managed to unify the people who gave them power. In order to support kings, the people they reign over give up their land in exchange for protection from outside invasion. It makes sense to concentrate power within a family because the children get direct exposure to business of ruling a territory. It's the same reason my oldest son is a level 1 beginner piano player at 5 years old--that's all we do at my house. If your father is a carpenter, he can employ your help at an early age by asking you to bring him tools instead of wasting time looking for them himself--so he has to teach you what those tools are and why/how they are used. The son of a warrior learns about weapons early on in life, and the son of a king has to learn about local politics, law, defense, and domestic needs. Monarchy makes sense.

Where it DOESN'T make sense is where it breaks down. Long periods of peace, while a good thing, are notorious for drawing complacency among the ruling class. The ruling class shift their focus to enjoying the rewards of rule rather than keeping their nation in a state of preparedness. So when the plague hits, along with drought, flood, earthquake, and famine, a ruling class that has forgotten how to rule will ultimately find itself deposed.

Democracies flourish because we all really are in this together. The concern of just one citizen IS the concern of the state. We are ALWAYS on alert because we know that what happens abroad affects us, and we already have our response prepared. Liberal democracies only break down because it is possible for the people to choose a different form of governing structure. It would take a LONG period of time to happen in the United States, but it is nevertheless possible.

In either case, monarchies and democracies only work as long as the governance and the people governed are pulling for the same team.

Theocracies are different. If you go against God in a theocracy, you have to die. It's treason. Why? Because as a nation, a theocracy is engaged in perpetual battle against evil. You're up against the whole world. You can't conquer another nation, of course, because there has to be unity in deciding to build the theocracy. You can make treaties with surrounding nations under specific conditions, of course, but there can be no disagreement. So things like blasphemy are not just an affront against God--they are an affront against the state (because God is King). There is no such thing as "religious tolerance" in a theocracy.

So the question is, who would WANT to live in a theocracy ruled by Yahweh? I should hope Christians would. If only the "Chosen," i.e. those who have decided to put their faith in Christ, constitute a true divine monarchy, then you have unity and unanimous agreement on how the nation will conduct itself. The need for any kind of punishment is gone and people are free to do as they will. Everyone is pulling for the same team. Not because they are compelled by God to do just what God wants them to do, like robots, but because they love God and already are committed (by their own will) to do what God wants.



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13 Sep 2012, 9:41 am

Danimal wrote:
I think it's curious that so many Christians want a thousand year kingdom ruled by Christ. We Americans have a federal republic. We have been free from kings, queens, and an unelected nobility since 1783. We elect our Presidents, Senators, representatives, our state officials. We even elect our county treasurers and coronors. Our Constitution is the oldest working constitution in the world. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to give all this up in return for a kingdom and an all-powerful king. The divine right of kings ended a long time ago.


And for quite some time all these politicians have been turning everything they touch to ****. I'd rather live under the rule of Jesus than any/all of the clowns in washington, democratically appointed or not.

Besides, If Jesus came to the USA right now and joined in the race, he'd win in a landslide and you know it. :tongue:



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13 Sep 2012, 9:45 am

Tensu wrote:
And for quite some time all these politicians have been turning everything they touch to ****. I'd rather live under the rule of Jesus than any/all of the clowns in washington, democratically appointed or not.

Besides, If Jesus came to the USA right now and joined in the race, he'd win in a landslide and you know it. :tongue:


So if some long haired bearded guy claiming to be the son of God turned up and said he wanted to be your president, you think the population would vote for him rather than have him committed to a mental asylum?


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13 Sep 2012, 9:57 am

"seriously" and "literally" do not mean the same thing.



Tensu
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13 Sep 2012, 10:45 am

TallyMan wrote:
Tensu wrote:
And for quite some time all these politicians have been turning everything they touch to ****. I'd rather live under the rule of Jesus than any/all of the clowns in washington, democratically appointed or not.

Besides, If Jesus came to the USA right now and joined in the race, he'd win in a landslide and you know it. :tongue:


So if some long haired bearded guy claiming to be the son of God turned up and said he wanted to be your president, you think the population would vote for him rather than have him committed to a mental asylum?


No, if Jesus showed up I think the population would vote for him. But they would have to know he was Jesus.



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13 Sep 2012, 11:02 am

Tensu wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Tensu wrote:
And for quite some time all these politicians have been turning everything they touch to ****. I'd rather live under the rule of Jesus than any/all of the clowns in washington, democratically appointed or not.

Besides, If Jesus came to the USA right now and joined in the race, he'd win in a landslide and you know it. :tongue:


So if some long haired bearded guy claiming to be the son of God turned up and said he wanted to be your president, you think the population would vote for him rather than have him committed to a mental asylum?


No, if Jesus showed up I think the population would vote for him. But they would have to know he was Jesus.


Divide a few loaves and fishes amongst the homeless perhaps?


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ruveyn
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13 Sep 2012, 11:17 am

TallyMan wrote:
[

Divide a few loaves and fishes amongst the homeless perhaps?


It works for the pinko stinko commie loving liberals. They keep on getting re-elected. Sprinkle crumbs on the masses and the proles and you own them.

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13 Sep 2012, 2:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
[

Divide a few loaves and fishes amongst the homeless perhaps?


It works for the pinko stinko commie loving liberals. They keep on getting re-elected. Sprinkle crumbs on the masses and the proles and you own them.

ruveyn


Feeding poor people is bad?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



BroodQueen
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13 Sep 2012, 3:23 pm

Im a member of a Unitarian Universalist church and there are other regulars with asperger's there. while not strictly a christian church its very inviting and open minded we dont teach religion because religion is something personal but I found that even for christian who dont "fit the norm" its the best possible environment to grow as a person and within your own religion,

And no it is not a CULT thats christian propaganda.

And gotta love that jesus guy hes where the hoes are lol.



Kraichgauer
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13 Sep 2012, 6:12 pm

BroodQueen wrote:
Im a member of a Unitarian Universalist church and there are other regulars with asperger's there. while not strictly a christian church its very inviting and open minded we dont teach religion because religion is something personal but I found that even for christian who dont "fit the norm" its the best possible environment to grow as a person and within your own religion,

And no it is not a CULT thats christian propaganda.

And gotta love that jesus guy hes where the hoes are lol.


For the record, I've never heard of the Unitarians being called a cult. At least not in my Lutheran church.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer