The Obama victory.

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Zero sum casino where they control who gets what - You mean like what we have right now with the neoliberals and big business tag teaming the poor into greater poverty?

Excellent!! !! You have elegantly described Crony Capitalism. Well done.

ruveyn

Object as you please... but I am tired of seeing people on this board flagrantly disregarding the rules and being insulting to other members. We all come here to discuss openly and NOT receive the same treatment as we do elsewhere...

But, as I am starting to see all over the board, the newer members are allowed to be as rude and condescending and outright insulting to everyone and everything as they want and no one, even the moderators are doing anything about it.

I am sorry I offended you Fnord... but I think I may be going because we can't even follow the rules we set for ourselves anymore

Oh, are you seeing this all over WrongPlanet and not just in the Politics, Philosophy and Religion section? Now that is bad. There are many thousands of members for every moderator (although most are apparently lurkers instead of posters). Flagrant meanness is caught eventually so far as I can tell. I haven't noticed myself it getting ruder on other forums besides PPR, and the level of rudeness in PPR has always been higher. I've heard a general rule for conversation at dinner tables for example is to avoid discussing Politics, Philosophy and Religion because of the potential for conflict.

One thing I've found is that the mods apply different levels according to which forum we're in. For example, in the Haven one is expected to be a lot more gentle than here in PPR. This is like the Wild West because of the nature of the discussion in this part of WrongPlanet. Someone has to be very very rude and very personal to get moderated in this section, and I think that is wise of the moderators. I'm sorry if it's too rough for you here. Many members do not like PPR and will not post here because of the rough and tumble atmosphere. Others thrive on it, so it is good that there is a place even on WrongPlanet for those folks.

One has to have a thick skin to ever post anything on the internet and not be ready for a rude, mean or downright irrational response. The mods are doing a great job so far as I can tell. I've seen people and threads be corrected by them. I haven't noticed it getting worse, but I mainly hang out here in PPR which, like I say, is like the Wild West sometimes. Even here there are guardian angels though that make it much friendlier than many other forums on the internet.

Rudeness is not necessary. Do not confuse making a point definitively as rudeness. One can demolish the argument of another without resort to ad hominim insults. One simply points out the mistake the other is making. In fact doing so is a valuable gift. Pointing out someone's error saves him the time of finding out his error the hard way.

And as self respecting Aspies and Auties we should not behave like our NT brethren.

ruveyn

Let us not forget nor abandon our intellectual cynicsm or sarcasm.

Sending Us Back To The Dark Ages?
One does not need 1/2, of 1/3 of the sciences to be globally competitive. China and India and the rest of the world are not inching up on us because of their advances in 1/2 of 1/3 of the sciences... they are inching up on us in the hard sciences, with breakthroughs Chemistry and Physics. There isn't an ounce of darwinian evolution that meaningfully applies to pharmacology or to a nuclear physicist. It helps you understand NOTHING!

Capitalism
You do not have our capitalist model anywhere in history. Why? Because never in history has capitalism also been tied to Democracy, the values of Americanism: "From Many, One," "In God We Trust," and "Liberty" -- as well as our checks and balances and the moral framework that the Declaration of Independence lays out. It is a unique system, and if communists were to make communism workable and lead to as many advances in history as capitalism has, it would be fair to that form of communism to make the distinctions of where it breaks from traditional communism. The two are not one of the same.

Greed
Greed animates the Republicans? Well you have a lot of explaining then for the poor of both parties. Ours never become millionaires by backing the "greedy" policies of the GOP, and yours stay dependent on the "equality" driven, and "Compassionate" Government for a very long time, if not forever. No! Perhaps the track to upward mobility is less of a government solution. And more so up to the individual. The only way the Government can impede that is by regulations and taxes.

Ignorance
Ignorance is a charge because you can't possibly believe we believe what we believe. We take you seriously, but one on the left cannot possibly believe that a conservative can possibly believe in conservatism, given all of the ramifications of that belief. So either we're stupid, misinformed/mislead, or have bad intentions. This is not healthy to be assuming our intentions or not taking us seriously. It is what has helped create this toxic political culture in the first place.

Fear
What... and you don't Fear lowering taxes on the wealthy, or privatizing our safety nets? You don't fear our military budget or moving creationism into scientific classrooms? The Left is animated by Fear as well. But here is where we differ: Our Fear is because we have something decent, a rarity in human history, and you guys want to F* it all up. You have all of Europe, most of Asia, whose public spending as a % of GDP is far more socialist then ours, but no. You have to have the United States as well, the one working beacon of capitalism, and the only existing model in the free world. Why can't you be content with Canada? Or Mexico? Or all of Latin and South America? We only have one United States, it is a unique example in human history, please vote with your feet and move somewhere else if you like what their doing better. As if the world doesn't have enough socialist nations to begin with.

Oh it isn't just evolution where conservatives are in denial of reality, and you are wrong about it not applying to pharmacology. In general, the Republicans have become increasingly anti-science and anti-intellectual the past few decades. The Dark Ages I refer to are the stated desire of many conservatives to make the USA a theocracy.


I did not say I am in favor of getting rid of capitalism. However, when it is completely unregulated you get unscrupulous people exploiting other people and raping the planet to the detriment of everyone including themselves, but they are either so greedy they don't care or so stupid they don't realize this, or both!


No, I do believe you believe what you believe, which is why I charge ignorance. Many "facts" conservatives use to justify their positions are wrong, just plain wrong. I'm not calling them stupid, just misinformed. Part of it is from relying on sources such as Fox News which studies have shown can make you dumber. Part is relying on so-called Christian web sites or other organizations such as the Discovery Institute that spread LIES and DISTORTIONS about what is real.


Studies have shown that there are differences in the physical structure of the brains of conservatives compared to liberals. The "fear center" of the brain is larger in people who claim to be conservatives. Perhaps becoming conservative makes that fear center larger, or maybe because it is larger is why one chooses to become conservative. Either way, conservatives ARE driven more by fear than liberals are. Liberals do not fear change but conservatives favor tradition even if that tradition is wrong or unfair.

There are situations where having a conservative viewpoint is better, and others where having a liberal viewpoint is better. We need diversity in our society to better cope with changing circumstances (and change is the only constant in the universe). I do not want every conservative to become a liberal or vice versa. I would like us all to be better acquainted with what others believe, and WHY they believe it, and respect each other, and respect truth and not spread lies and distortions about demonstrable reality. That would be nice, wouldn't it? I am not claiming to be perfect or able to live up to my own standards all the time, but those are my ideals.

Evolution
Evolution will aid the research of medicine, how? Evolution, that it has any relevance AT ALL to physics, manifests itself in what way? I have no idea what you are talking about. It is nothing but inferential anecdotes and recall that you brought up our competitiveness with regards to the world. The world, I will remind you, has no great technological or scientific advances that they owe to evolution. That's not where their competitiveness is, that's not where ours will come from, either...

GOP & Science
Tell me how that is when Republicans were the most supportive of science at the height of the cold war... Being against stem cell research is not being against science, especially when science is not only capable of producing alternative ways to continue research, but has found a way around the ethical issues that many pro-life advocates have. Your citing the science behind conservative brains is what is turning people away from Science. That, and the audacity of Scientists and their stupid Materalism AS ALL THERE IS to dictate what is in the realm of philosophy of religion.

Objectivity
Don't act as if objectivity resides on your side. I don't call your ideas silly putty because you get it from the "morons" of MSNBC. Citing FOX is your way of not dealing with anything we bring up. It is just as dismissive as calling those you disagree with Nazi's or Homophobes. Because who debates a Nazi or Homophobe... you don't.

Fear Part II
Liberals don't "Fear" conservative policy? Liberals don't fear a return to the Bush years? I have no idea what your talking about. I also wonder if you even hear yourself. You state at the onset your fear of Conservatives returning us to the dark ages, and then only a few paragraphs down dismiss your side of being fearful. Fear is what animates human beings to fight what they are fearful of. Do Greenpeace activists or PETA or Feminist groups not operate out of Fear? And if so, what exactly?

The problem is by your standard the only way to "take you seriously" is to agree with you. For me to say someone who believes the world is 10,000 years old is NOT mislead requires me to accept that it is actually possible that the world is 10,000 years old. I simply can't do this because all the evidence points to the contrary. The same hold for all kinds of other things the right believes. The only way to avoid stepping on their toes is to falsely pretend I agree with them. It's like conservatives have to be treated like children with kid gloves.

I also see plenty of conservatives assuming Obama has bad intentions. They seriously believe he is a tyrant intentionally dead set on "destroying America". We have people like Glenn Beck constantly telling people to be afraid, that Obama hates America and hates "white culture". So much for the right taking "the left's" intentions seriously. That is even if you can with a straight face call Obama or mainstream Democrats of today "the left".

QFT

The only way the earth could be only 10,000 years old is if God is the biggest LIAR and PRANKSTER ever, which of course, if He exists and if He is all-powerful and all that, He COULD be! In some ways that is cool, to think of God planting all the evidence of the physical universe that contradicts a literal reading of His book and then seeing how many people fall for his prank. In another way, if we're really going to burn in hell forever if we are fooled, that's NOT COOL, GOD!

You don't have to agree with me to take me seriously. You just have to believe that I believe what I believe, and do what we conservatives do: Ask whether something is true or untrue. We can go from there.


Further, we define:
We can't go anywhere meaningful if you excuse us as, or assume we are stupid. Because that inhibits you from questioning and entertaining possibilities. You don't reason with a stupid person, you just say things are so, and hope they will be able to process what you are saying.

We can't go anywhere meaningful if you excuse us as, or assume we are misinformed. Because then objectivity becomes a question. Misinformed according to who? If it is your side, then you are speaking as if you have an ownership of objective reality and objective morality. We should be able to use logic and reason to arrive at our viewpoints and entertain the others viewpoints, and openly acknowledge the biases that our values bring into our understanding.

We can't go anywhere meaningful if you excuse us as, or assume we are greedy or have bad intentions. Bad intentions is perhaps the most commonly thrown out of the three. "We are for ending suffering" a liberal might say. Are you then inferring that those who are your opponents are not? You care about children, but we don't? You care about women, but we don't? We are greedy, but you aren't? I mean its endless.


Obama And America
Obama does hate America as it is, but is, like every Liberal, passionately in love with the America that could be. White Males and their values are the problem, and if we can move beyond a world ruled by these white males, and their "system"... we can arrive at a secular-leading, equality holding, tolerant seeking, multicultural society that is animated by the justice that compassion demands.

If you do not remember Mr. Obama's words, he stated it quite clearly... he is going to fundamentally transform this nation 5 days before the 2008 elections. He will finish the job this second term.

We have the fossils. We win. Objective reality IS on our side on many subjects. Many conservatives are in outright denial of what is demonstrably real. To me, that qualifies as a form of insanity. Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. Imagine someone is talking to you who seems perfectly reasonable and sane at first, then out of the blue they insist the earth is flat in spite of all evidence to the contrary and we should give equal time to the flat earth theory in public schools. Many conservative positions are that stupid, that ridiculous, and that wrong!

And actions speak louder than words. Some liberals try to make the world a better place for everyone while it seems conservatives frequently only try to do what is best for them and theirs. I am also offended by the hypocrisy of so many conservatives who try to claim the moral high ground when their ACTIONS and even their stated intentions are the OPPOSITE of the teachings of Jesus.

It could be that greedy ignorant people sincerely cannot grasp that there might be some people out there who are NOT out just for themselves. Tough. There are. Deal with it. I see a bigger picture. If I make the world a better place for someone else, that is the same world I live in so it is a better world for me too. Also, I identify with everyone and everything as being manifestations of the same divine consciousness or at least that we all live on the same planet so we should be nice to each other. Either way, I am glad Obama won. I hope some good results from this, but we are dealing with humans here and as you point out, many if not most humans are out just for themselves. We'll see...

Well thank you for the reply, I'm glad you acknowledged the unfortunate reality I described above by being a working example of it.Tolerance is a one way street. It is for me to drop my associations, many of which are projected on to me, by the left, and accept yours.

If some of what you believe is as out of touch with reality as I describe, then yeah, join the real world buddy. I am sure the heck not gonna give up my sanity and pretend the earth is flat just because some people have been lied to about it and don't take the trouble to investigate whether or not they are being lied to about it. You want to be insane? Go for it. Just don't expect me to vote for you if you run for any public office. It also damages your credibility about anything you say on any subject if you are so deluded. I still love you.

My position has always been that if someone is trying to tell me they have great spiritual truths about God or existence or the afterlife, but they also try to tell me things about the physical world that I *know* are false because of abundant evidence that falsifies what they say, well, why should I trust their word on matters I cannot easily check when they are so very wrong about things I CAN check for myself?

Augustine warned of this very problem a long time ago (about 400 A.D.), that if Christians make ignorant assertions about the natural world that nonbelievers can easily see are false, it damages their credibility and turns people away from Christ. I know you are not a Christian. I am just using this as an example.

I am going to add to what you say. One also has to be willing to re-examine and demolish his own argument if he realizes the premises and assumptions they are built upon are faulty. He has to admit he is wrong.

Some arguments I made stated that certain concepts and beliefs others had were contradictory. This makes the assumption that certain concepts are mutually exclusive from each other when they're not.