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League_Girl
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24 Nov 2012, 2:02 pm

I don't know how many there are but everyone has their own opinions about it. Of course there are people that think if you have to go on welfare, you need to sell everything first and to me that is so stupid and I am not doing that just so I can sit at home and stare at he wall and sleep on the floor and sit on it too. Besides what if it's only temporary? And some people consider unemployment, WIC, foodtstamps, medicaid as welfare.


I cannot grasp why someone would want to go on welfare so they wouldn't have to work because they barely give you any money and you can't live a luxurious life that way either. Plus you sure can't buy whatever you want like games and movies and anew game system or a new flat screen TV or a nice new car. Plus no way would you be able to afford a nice home. Sure there are programs out there that give low income people housing and there are foodstamps and medicaid. I do know a family that is on it and both parents are disabled and they are on welfare but they have a nice home they rent and they are on foodtstamps and they have a van too. But I have no opinion about them being on it because I don't know their situation well for me to judge. They do have a computer and video games too and lots of movies but we all can't expect them to not have anything and have them stare at the wall and sleep on floors and eat on floors.


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24 Nov 2012, 2:08 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Here is my question: How many people are seriously living on welfare that they don't need? I seriously don't know the answer.


If you're going to ask this, you probably ought to consider an equally, if not more important question.

How do retailers benefit from Food Stamp and TANF?

http://maxkeiser.com/2012/09/09/current ... ood-sales/

http://www.eatdrinkpolitics.com/wp-cont ... ySimon.pdf

13% of all retail food sales?! That's plenty of bucks to warrant lobbying in favor of these programs.

So who's really at fault for the perpetuation of this system?

It's not as simple as a bunch of lazy good for nothings who just don't want to work. It's a much more complex problem than that.


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24 Nov 2012, 2:23 pm

More than Liberals want you to think, less than Conservatives want you to think.


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24 Nov 2012, 2:28 pm

I don't know how common they are, but it's something that needs to be discouraged.


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1000Knives
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24 Nov 2012, 2:36 pm

Fnord wrote:
Our locals recently arrested a man who had been paying 50 to 80 cents on the dollar for Welfare Cards (they're like debit cards). Then he used them to buy items in bulk at big-box stores, and sold them for a huge profit in his own store. He'd been doing this for about a year.


This is quite common. One thing that's actually very common is Chinese restaurants doing it. Chinese food is dirt cheap to make (rice is like 39c a pound,) generally what happens is, people give up their EBT card to the Chinese restaurant for some money, and possibly free food at the restaurant. But I see this all the

And of course, as you said, people run their corner stores with stuff bought from food stamps like that.



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24 Nov 2012, 3:17 pm

In Norway it is very common.



RushKing
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24 Nov 2012, 3:48 pm

ruveyn wrote:
As long as "greedy people" do not use force, threat of force or fraud to become rich, they are morally in the clear.

ruveyn

Well, they do. If no one used force we would not have capitalism. Land is obtained with force. Landlords use the state to prevent other individuals from freely doing what they want to do with it.



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24 Nov 2012, 4:04 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Our locals recently arrested a man who had been paying 50 to 80 cents on the dollar for Welfare Cards (they're like debit cards). Then he used them to buy items in bulk at big-box stores, and sold them for a huge profit in his own store. He'd been doing this for about a year.
The fact there is welfare fraud is not a reason to scrub such programs. It is merely a reason for extensive oversight and monitoring of welfare recipients as well as busting chumps like the guy you mentioned who are stealing from people in need.

I never said it was. The fact that he was eventually caught indicates that policing is being done, while the fact that it took so long for him to be caught means that more policing is needed.

When I suspect welfare fraud, I report it.


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ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 4:38 pm

RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
As long as "greedy people" do not use force, threat of force or fraud to become rich, they are morally in the clear.

ruveyn

Well, they do. If no one used force we would not have capitalism. Land is obtained with force. Landlords use the state to prevent other individuals from freely doing what they want to do with it.


That is not capitalism. That is corruption and bribery.

By the way, when you went to the supermarket did anyone use force or threats on you to determine what you bought? Did you enter the market voluntarily. If you didn't like what was there were you prevented from leaving by force or threats?

ruveyn



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24 Nov 2012, 4:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
As long as "greedy people" do not use force, threat of force or fraud to become rich, they are morally in the clear.

ruveyn

Well, they do. If no one used force we would not have capitalism. Land is obtained with force. Landlords use the state to prevent other individuals from freely doing what they want to do with it.


That is not capitalism. That is corruption and bribery.

By the way, when you went to the supermarket did anyone use force or threats on you to determine what you bought? Did you enter the market voluntarily. If you didn't like what was there were you prevented from leaving by force or threats?

ruveyn


the same can be said of the social contract, leave where you live if you cant agree to it,

luckily over here that includes taking care of those that cant themselves, i really do think one can judge a society on how it treats the weakest members of it,


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ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 4:52 pm

Oodain wrote:

luckily over here that includes taking care of those that cant themselves, i really do think one can judge a society on how it treats the weakest members of it,


I believe helping the needy should be a voluntary and private act.

The government does not compel me to donate blood or platelets. I just do it. The government does not compel me to record books for blind and dyslexic folks. I just do it. Voluntary and private, the way good deeds ought to be done.

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24 Nov 2012, 5:37 pm

Mainly what people are talking about when they say "welfare bums" are people who go on welfare, foodstamps, find a way to get disability etc, and sell drugs to make their actual money. It's not that uncommon.

Here is a scenario. Guy gets a job and has a "back injury" which are notoriously hard to diagnose or prove or disprove. Many times, doctors use range of motion to diagnose that and MRI etc doesn't always show something even with legitimate injuries. He gets disability. He also gets medicaid and food stamps and welfare. Maybe he hooks up with a woman with kids so you can add her food stamps and welfare to that. They have seperate official addresses but live together and pool their resources. Then the dude starts selling weed. That's where he makes his actual money. They use the government money for things like bills, rent (if they aren't in the projects) etc. There is a huge amount of money to be made just selling weed. If he decides to step up his game and sell blow, then he's really got the cash coming in.

That's the typical "welfare bum"

Then again, there are some welfare bums who could work but choose not to take a job that they feel is beneath them, doesn't pay them what they feel they are worth, nor "challange" them enough, even though the job would provide them with the money to live without having to rely on tax dollars.


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24 Nov 2012, 6:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
As long as "greedy people" do not use force, threat of force or fraud to become rich, they are morally in the clear.

ruveyn

Well, they do. If no one used force we would not have capitalism. Land is obtained with force. Landlords use the state to prevent other individuals from freely doing what they want to do with it.


That is not capitalism. That is corruption and bribery.

By the way, when you went to the supermarket did anyone use force or threats on you to determine what you bought? Did you enter the market voluntarily. If you didn't like what was there were you prevented from leaving by force or threats?

ruveyn


Often greedy people do use force, intimidation, and coercion to obtain their wealth. They're called sweatshops for a reason.



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24 Nov 2012, 6:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
blue_moon666 wrote:

I think you just gave me a great example of cognitive dissonance. A society is only as strong as the weakest member. Forcing greedy people to stop their immoral behavior is essential to our survival.


A society is precisely as good as its brightest and best. The weakling and failures are dead weight on the rest of us.

As long as "greedy people" do not use force, threat of force or fraud to become rich, they are morally in the clear.

Apparently you believe that if A has a million dollars and B has only a thousand dollars that A has somehow wronged B. How would you like to live in a society where -everything- is equalized. Not only money and other assets, but talent, intelligence and ambition. We could call it the People's Republic of Mediocracy where the non-outstanding rule and the better folks are punished for being better.

ruveyn


Why do you think the weaklings are failures? Are you suggesting that disabled people are a dead weight to society? I actually do have disabled family members who are receiving government help for very legitimate reasons. That fact that you are calling them "failures" is extremely insulting and rude.



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24 Nov 2012, 7:24 pm

Over at the store I work at, a lot of the people on food stamps have jobs, because they come in and buy food in work clothes. I guess they're not making enough to eat, so they supplement with EBT. My mom used to be on foodstamps too when she was single, and I'm glad they were available. Welfare isn't something that should be a permanent solution, just something to keep people from killing each other over food during times of recession.



Last edited by JNathanK on 24 Nov 2012, 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 7:32 pm

blue_moon666 wrote:

Often greedy people do use force, intimidation, and coercion to obtain their wealth. They're called sweatshops for a reason.


No one is forced to take such under the threat of deadly force. Yes, there are businesses with sub-standard working conditions. As long as people work at such places voluntarily, what is your complaint?

ruveyn