Is the Left-Right Paradigm dumbing down America?

Page 3 of 4 [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

23 Mar 2013, 9:05 pm

It all boils down to neurotypicals trying to fit in. For example there are some Democrats who are personally opposed to abortion. But it would be political suicide for a Democrat to want to cut off abortion funding. Not only political suicide but a person who does not fit in is considered mentally ill by the medical establishment. Another example is communism. In order to fit in a communist would have to be an atheist.

It really goes against the nature of an autistic to abandon his or her beliefs just to fit in. But it goes against the nature of a neurotypical to hold on to to their beliefs and risk being ostracized.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

24 Mar 2013, 10:02 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Noodlebug wrote:
To clarify, the Left-Right paradigm is the system of liberals vs conservatives, or simply a system where citizens are divided by a political binary.

According to this paradigm, you're a Republican if you're pro-life, conservative, pro-gun, pro-war, a fundamentalist Christian, etc. Also according to this, you're a Democrat if you're pro-choice, believe in gun control, are an atheist or a secularist, support gay marriage, etc.



There are atheist and agnostic Republicans. I know several. They all have one thing in common. They think our government along with its welfare and economic polices suck lemons. Just because the Jesus Christers have hijacked the party, does not mean all Republicans are Jesus Christers.

ruveyn


The you all have in common is wanting to turn the clock back towards the 19th century way of doing things. Lets make our society as cruel, brutish, and unjust as possible as long as "I got mine". Religion and right-wing economics have a lot of things in common. Both systems to make people "know their place". Adherence to tradition and enforcement of social stability through hierarchy and punishment. This together with complete lack of a soul. None of this is coincidence. The same personality characteristics that make people "conservative" in other ways often make them economically conservative. It's a type of brutish phallic thinking.



uwmonkdm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2013
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 764
Location: Canada

24 Mar 2013, 10:22 pm

Because the American public is so intelligently educated if you just ignore the political paradigms, right? :lol:



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,559
Location: the island of defective toy santas

25 Mar 2013, 2:25 am

thomas81 wrote:
the left right paradigm isn't dumbing down America. America is dumb politically because it doesn't understand the left-right spectrum. The problem with American politics is the 2 horse race. It needs more parties to represent the different positions of the political compass.

QFT.



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,559
Location: the island of defective toy santas

25 Mar 2013, 2:26 am

uwmonkdm wrote:
Because the American public is so intelligently educated if you just ignore the political paradigms, right? :lol:

once again: "nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american public."



Schneekugel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,612

25 Mar 2013, 5:21 am

I think the only thing, that could bring you down, was when your left and right parties would stop talking and listening to each others, which would lead to stop working for their country. :)

When they stop to talk and listen, then conflicts between the followers of these parties will rise, and this can ruin any nation.



Tensu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,661
Location: Nixa, MO, USA

25 Mar 2013, 11:49 pm

thomas81 wrote:
the left right paradigm isn't dumbing down America.

America is dumb politically because it doesn't understand the left-right spectrum.

The problem with American politics is the 2 horse race. It needs more parties to represent the different positions of the political compass.


I would argue it is because putting political positions in a spectrum in an inherently dumb thing to do.

The left-right spectrum basically asks "Which do you prefer, losing all your rights to a nanny state or losing all your rights to big business?"*

Unfortunately for me, my answer to that question is "neither". Now you would suggest a moderate party, someone in the middle of the spectrum. But the problem with that is There are some positions I hold that would be considered at the extreme ends of the spectrum, and a moderate party might not pursue them to anywhere near the extremes I would want or worse yet, take the aspects of each extreme I disagree with and leave behind the ones I like.

A multi-cornered political compass is better, but still doesn't come anywhere close to solving these problems. I disagree vehemently with democrats, republicans, authoritarians AND libertarians on multiple issues and a "moderate" party on the compass has all the same issues as a "moderate" party on the spectrum. There are just too many possible combinations of beliefs to be organized that way, as beliefs that are claimed to contradict each other usually don't and beliefs that are claimed to go hand-in-hand often contradict each other. For example Republicans oppose big government, but usually support big military and expanding police powers.

Furthermore, it is not that Americans do not understand the spectrum, but that our political system makes it difficult. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that in Europe the more votes a party gets, the more members it gets to appoint in parliament. However every election in the United States has only one winner. Our political history is full of examples of the vote being split and because of this Americans are hesitant to vote for third party candidates for fear that they'll split the vote and the greater of two evils will win.

We either need to switch to something more reminiscent of a European parliament (which is unlikely given how our country is set up) or my personal preference abolish political parties and force everyone to run as an independent in the hope that politicians would be emboldened to deviate from the nonsense ideologies that the left-right spectrum creates.

*I was exaggerating for emphasis so don't cite this as an example of how I don't understand the spectrum because I know It's more complicated than that.



uwmonkdm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2013
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 764
Location: Canada

26 Mar 2013, 12:47 am

auntblabby wrote:
uwmonkdm wrote:
Because the American public is so intelligently educated if you just ignore the political paradigms, right? :lol:

once again: "nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american public."


can't tell if sarcasm...



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,472
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

26 Mar 2013, 12:56 am

uwmonkdm wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
uwmonkdm wrote:
Because the American public is so intelligently educated if you just ignore the political paradigms, right? :lol:

once again: "nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american public."


can't tell if sarcasm...


Regardless, it's right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

26 Mar 2013, 6:05 am

marshall wrote:

The you all have in common is wanting to turn the clock back towards the 19th century way of doing things.


In the (cursed) 19th century the money was worth something. Now it is just green confetti and i.o.u. s that will never be repaid.

ruveyn



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

26 Mar 2013, 10:11 am

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:

The you all have in common is wanting to turn the clock back towards the 19th century way of doing things.


In the (cursed) 19th century the money was worth something. Now it is just green confetti and i.o.u. s that will never be repaid.

ruveyn


If you can use it to purchase goods and services it is worth something. The usage of paper money is a privilege and a convenience provided by the government to facilitate ease of transaction. If certain individuals refuse to be taxed to pay for things that are vital for keeping society running the only other choices are debt or the printing press. If you want to hoard your wealth you are still free to buy precious metals.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,841
Location: London

26 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Tensu wrote:

Furthermore, it is not that Americans do not understand the spectrum, but that our political system makes it difficult. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that in Europe the more votes a party gets, the more members it gets to appoint in parliament. However every election in the United States has only one winner. Our political history is full of examples of the vote being split and because of this Americans are hesitant to vote for third party candidates for fear that they'll split the vote and the greater of two evils will win.

We either need to switch to something more reminiscent of a European parliament (which is unlikely given how our country is set up) or my personal preference abolish political parties and force everyone to run as an independent in the hope that politicians would be emboldened to deviate from the nonsense ideologies that the left-right spectrum creates.

You are essentially right (although some votes are worth more than others because of how close a seat is, so like in the 2000 American election a party can win the popular vote and still lose, though this is unlikely with three or more serious parties). What about in the Senate and Congress? You currently only have two independents in the Senate, no Libertarians or Greens or other minor parties.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,647
Location: Seattle-ish

26 Mar 2013, 2:59 pm

marshall wrote:
The you all have in common is wanting to turn the clock back towards the 19th century way of doing things. Lets make our society as cruel, brutish, and unjust as possible as long as "I got mine". Religion and right-wing economics have a lot of things in common. Both systems to make people "know their place". Adherence to tradition and enforcement of social stability through hierarchy and punishment. This together with complete lack of a soul. None of this is coincidence. The same personality characteristics that make people "conservative" in other ways often make them economically conservative. It's a type of brutish phallic thinking.


Marshall, I know you're neither stupid nor a liar, so why do you persist in saying things that are both stupid and untrue? I get the impression from time to time that you think you're "punishing" people by saying nasty things about them, but really all you're doing is shooting yourself in the foot.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

26 Mar 2013, 3:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
the left right paradigm isn't dumbing down America.

America is dumb politically because it doesn't understand the left-right spectrum.

The problem with American politics is the 2 horse race. It needs more parties to represent the different positions of the political compass.


In American the left has a political smell about it. That is why pinko stinko commie loving liberals call themselves progressives and not socialists.

ruveyn


I disagree. I think there are plenty of self labelled communists and socialists in the USA (case in point being the CPUSA).
Its the right wing that are smearing the centre by branding liberals such as the democrats as socialist In order to whip up McCarthyist scaremongering. Meanwhile the biased media give no exposure to minimise the voice of the real left. The reason you don't know about them is that the hacks are very good at their job.


_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile


MDD123
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,007

26 Mar 2013, 3:23 pm

I noticed on facebook that both sides would put out memes that insulted the other side. I signed up for facebook to catch up with old friends, then ended up losing most of them because of politics.

After this last election, I am done with both main parties.


_________________
I'm a math evangelist, I believe in theorems and ignore the proofs.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,472
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

26 Mar 2013, 4:09 pm

MDD123 wrote:
I noticed on facebook that both sides would put out memes that insulted the other side. I signed up for facebook to catch up with old friends, then ended up losing most of them because of politics.

After this last election, I am done with both main parties.


That's also the case in private, face-to-face life. One of my neighbors in my apartment complex is decent sort of guy, is fighting cancer, and so has to be on public assistance. He and I get along just fine - - till politics comes up. Then all of a sudden, he thinks the left might as well be out to destroy the country, and quite possibly has risen from the depths of hell. I've tried to tell him that neither he nor I am going to change the others mind, but he keeps flapping his gums as if he hasn't heard me. I have to think, this neighbor would be quite a bit more likable had we as country not been convinced that politics are a black and white issue, and that the other side is completely evil.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer