Why should a man have to suffer painfully so we can go to he

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MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 6:28 pm

NAKnight wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

Just because there isn't any free will doesn't mean we can't be determined by factors in and around us to know it.

You are determined to believe in determinism.

Best Regards,

Jake

Exactly. And at this stage, you have been determined to believe in free will regardless of its veracity.

MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 6:35 pm

My argument against free will is simple.

Is it pure randomness or not? If it's pure randomness, then it's not really free will, is it? And if it's not pure randomness, then there is a definite reason, which excludes free will altogether.

Either way, you are not really choosing anything independently of any factor in or around you unless it's pure random, which excludes free will.

MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 6:36 pm

TallyMan wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

I can scarcely believe that any of you guys can take this sh*t seriously.

ruveyn

I was going to make a long post but simply saying "ditto" to yours makes more sense and will suffice.

And? This makes you a better person for agreeing with ruveyn?

Declension
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22 Dec 2012, 6:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Not so. How did we get from Euclidean Geometry to non Euclidean Geometry. How did we get from commutative algebras to non commutative algebras (e.g. the algebra of matrices and linear transformations. Non commutative).

Remember, we are talking about "laws" of mathematics. So they should be statements, like "2 + 2 = 4". Can you give me an example of a mathematical statement which is true in some possible worlds but false in others?

I don't see how any of those topics you raised allow you to come up with such a statement.

Take Euclidean geometry, for example. Any statement about Euclidean geometry would be something like

Quote:

In Euclidean geometry, Pythagoras' theorem is true.

Well, that statement is true in any possible world, regardless of whether or not Euclidean geometry is a good model for some aspect of the physical laws of that world.

So maybe you would try to come up with a statement like

Quote:

Pythagoras' theorem is true.

But I claim that this statement is actually meaningless, since it does not contain a reference to what type of geometry we are talking about.

Well, maybe you would try to use a statement like

Quote:

Euclidean geometry is a good model for some aspect of the physical laws of the world which I am in.

Well, this is a statement which is true in some possible worlds but not in others. However, it can't really be called a "law of mathematics", since it is actually about the application of mathematics, not about mathematics itself.

NAKnight
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22 Dec 2012, 8:12 pm

MCalavera wrote:

So someone, somewhere is pulling the strings to every decision I make? I find that really hard to believe when I'm deciding whether or not to respond to your next arguments. After all, if that is the case, arguments wouldn't matter anyway, you already pre determined your next statement.

If there is no free will, then no one is capable of choosing to believe something because of good reasons. One could never adjudicate between a good idea and a bad one. He’d only believe what he does because he’s been predetermined to do so. Arguments wouldn’t matter.

Best Regards,

Jake

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MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 8:22 pm

It doesn't have to imply any entity controlling us as puppets. It just is.

And really, what you're expressing is somewhat of a beef with determinism. You are not actually demonstrating why it's wrong.

NAKnight
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22 Dec 2012, 8:24 pm

MCalavera wrote:

[
Exactly. And at this stage, you have been determined to believe in free will regardless of its veracity.

That statement contradicts itself.

Best Regards,

Jake

MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 8:25 pm

NAKnight wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

[
Exactly. And at this stage, you have been determined to believe in free will regardless of its veracity.

That statement contradicts itself.

Best Regards,

Jake

How so?

A demonstration using logic would be helpful.

NAKnight
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22 Dec 2012, 8:26 pm

MCalavera wrote:

You are not actually demonstrating why it's wrong.

So now it's a argument of who is right or wrong?

Best Regards,

Jake

MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 8:28 pm

Yeah, I'd rather you demonstrate why it's wrong rather than express why you have a beef with it. Because the two are not really equivalent.

ruveyn
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22 Dec 2012, 8:29 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Free will equals a non-determinism in reaching decisions. One's choices are not determined by the physical state of the world.

ruveyn

NAKnight
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22 Dec 2012, 8:29 pm

MCalavera wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

[
Exactly. And at this stage, you have been determined to believe in free will regardless of its veracity.

That statement contradicts itself.

Best Regards,

Jake

How so?

A demonstration using logic would be helpful.

I'm not "Determined" to use "Free Will" more than you "Determined" to be an Athiest" You and I have something called a Choice
A "Choice" is something everyone of us make every day. If determinism is correct then why should you and I continue arguing?

Best Regards,

Jake

NAKnight
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22 Dec 2012, 8:31 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Yeah, I'd rather you demonstrate why it's wrong rather than express why you have a beef with it. Because the two are not really equivalent.

It's not a question of who is "right" or "wrong" Why did you bring it up?

Best Regards,

Jake

MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 9:10 pm

ruveyn wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

Free will equals a non-determinism in reaching decisions. One's choices are not determined by the physical state of the world.

ruveyn

The chemicals in your brain are still a part of the physical world.

MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 9:11 pm

NAKnight wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

[
Exactly. And at this stage, you have been determined to believe in free will regardless of its veracity.

That statement contradicts itself.

Best Regards,

Jake

How so?

A demonstration using logic would be helpful.

A choice, just like love and any other feeling/emotion/mental process, all boils down to what goes on in your brain.

MCalavera
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22 Dec 2012, 9:12 pm

As to why we should keep on arguing, it's because arguments can help shape and change and influence one's opinions. And also make clear one's own position.

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