Is the case for an Autistic country really that implausible?

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visagrunt
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27 Feb 2013, 2:29 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Thanks for agreeing with my main points that (a) that they dont know what causes it, but (b) its basically inherited biologically (rather than a product of bad upbringing or whatever) so that saying its 'caused genetically' is acceptable.

you're sputtering with anger at SOMETHING I said, but you seemed to agree with me in the main.

But to change the subject slightly -that is one of the many problems with an autistic country. What would happen to NT children born in this country? Would they have to be deported?


I'm not in the least angry; I'm critical. If you are going to persist in misuse of language and sloppy thinking, I'm going to call you on it.

I certainly don't agree that, "its (sic) basically inherited biologically." There is some evidence of heritability, but that is a very different statement. Genetics may play a role in some cases, but so far all we have is correlation. We have no evidence of causation.


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01 Mar 2013, 9:50 am

thomas81 wrote:
Surely there must be the funds among us to purchase a land somewhere, and we surely cant do a worse job of running a country than the NT's have thus far.


No thanks. There wouldn't be enough women. I'm already tired of living in Texas cities with too many dudes.



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04 Mar 2013, 3:27 pm

Will not say how insane or not the idea is (personal fan of quasi-tribalism)
But... There is plenty of space in space, or on/in the sea.


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04 Mar 2013, 5:32 pm

Nations do not need "cases", it's not like they need to justify their existance before the UN.

The above said, I personally think discussion of an Aspie nation is....considerably premature. In the current globe, I doubt any other country would recognize it anyway. South Sudan and East Timor are not exactly formation stories you'd like to emulate.


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04 Mar 2013, 6:24 pm

Tyri0n wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Surely there must be the funds among us to purchase a land somewhere, and we surely cant do a worse job of running a country than the NT's have thus far.


No thanks. There wouldn't be enough women. I'm already tired of living in Texas cities with too many dudes.


with the benefit of scientific progress, and conquering social taboos, the deficit could be countered through the manufacture of AI gynoids.


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ruveyn
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06 Mar 2013, 7:11 am

Tyri0n wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Surely there must be the funds among us to purchase a land somewhere, and we surely cant do a worse job of running a country than the NT's have thus far.


No thanks. There wouldn't be enough women. I'm already tired of living in Texas cities with too many dudes.


Aieeeee! You are right! Male auties and aspies outnumber females 5 or 6 to 1..

NT women will have to be imported into the Aspie State in order for it to even survive.

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naturalplastic
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06 Mar 2013, 7:25 am

ruveyn wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Surely there must be the funds among us to purchase a land somewhere, and we surely cant do a worse job of running a country than the NT's have thus far.


No thanks. There wouldn't be enough women. I'm already tired of living in Texas cities with too many dudes.


Aieeeee! You are right! Male auties and aspies outnumber females 5 or 6 to 1..

NT women will have to be imported into the Aspie State in order for it to even survive.

ruveyn


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24 Mar 2013, 2:03 am

0_equals_true wrote:

The problem is not NTs, it is human nature.


It's that kind of thinking that isn't going to get us anywhere. And by "us" I mean humans in general. We can be destructive and just horrible people but we can also do great things that can benefit everybody. It's hard for me to stay positive about the human race but we need to try to stop focusing on the bad things. The News just shows almost nothing but negative things, when plenty of good happens as well.



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24 Mar 2013, 5:08 am

It appears that if the DSM5 had not changed the criteria substantially there might eventually be no need to establish a new country, specific to males, as what was once identified as an actual disorder at 1 in 10,000 has most recently been reported as 1 in 50 by the CDC in a survey of over 65K parents, with 1 in 33 for males overall, ages 6 to 17, and about 1 in 150 for females.

That doesn't include the 10 to 15 percent already identified on the broader autism phenotype, and 30 percent of people in the population measured with at least one autistic trait in studies in the US and Sweden.

It appears that a society like the Amish is a good place for people to exercise special interests in well planned out social roles, where what might be a broader autism phenotype that exists in all human societies and a counterpart perhaps even reaching to 20% of all social animal populations, at the fringe edges, is less likely to become a limit of a major area of life functioning.

Door to door diagnostic scans done in two Amish Countries resulting in preliminary results in a study of a prevalence of 1 in 271, provides pretty good preliminary evidence that environment of culture plays a substantial role in what may be diagnosed as disorder. It was a much more comprehensive study than phone calls that people did not have to answer, in the national survey of parents where over 60K did answer the phone.

This was only a survey of people actually diagnosed. An actual full population scan based on DSMIV diagnostic tools would likely result in prevalence of 1 in 15 or less among males in some areas of the country. It is already at 1 in the high twenties per actual surveillance of children in New Jersey and another state that I can not remember, that is listed in the CDC, 1 in 88, official surveillance results.

For whatever reasons the 10 to 15 percent, perhaps 20% of broader autism phenotype is becoming more likely to exist as an ASD diagnosis in the US, South Korea, and Japan. Greater awareness and the loosely required criterion elements per DSMIV and later standards in these countries has a lot to do with it, but numbers in Amish counties indicate that there is some type of cultural/environmental phenomenon that is resulting in higher rates of diagnosis.

When people leave Amish counties they often do not fare well in adapting to modern society. The answer is likely to be found in culture instead of environmental toxin.

Unfortunately, vaccine hysteria has limited research in this more appropriate area of study among the Amish. The preliminary study of the 1 in 271, presented in the International Meeting of Autism Research IMFAR, was never published in a peer reviewed journal.

I think it was likely considered as politically incorrect and difficult to publish, per vaccine hysteria, as some would point to a factor of lower rates of vaccination among the Amish, along with the lower prevalence rate, as a type of evidence of an autism-vaccine link, if the results were available in a peer reviewed study.

Countries do require diversity of minds to function well, but without appropriate cultural niches for differences in abilities in social roles that can be found, some fare better than others.

Unfortunately one usually is born into Amish Culture, and it is not usually a club of culture that one can just drop in and join. Not likely that many raised on fast paced technology of instant gratification, would want to make that kind of change.

And there may lie one of the answers as to why the prevalence numbers are so different in Japan, South Korea and the US, as compared to Amish Counties. And why the big increases have occurred in the 90's and beyond, other than loosely defined diagnostic criteria and better awareness and access to diagnosis.


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ruveyn
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24 Mar 2013, 7:20 am

aghogday wrote:


Unfortunately one usually is born into Amish Culture, and it is not usually a club of culture that one can just drop in and join. Not likely that many raised on fast paced technology of instant gratification, would want to make that kind of change.

s.


Being Amish is more than a religion. It is a Way of Life.

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24 Mar 2013, 10:20 am

Circling back to the OP...

thomas81 wrote:
Surely there must be the funds among us to purchase a land somewhere, and we surely cant do a worse job of running a country than the NT's have thus far.


I've said before that I consider discussions of a country to be counter-productive at best.

Land of course is valuable, but it's much more valuable when merged with an existing legal enviroment, such as in an existing country/state/county/provence/department/city/town/etc.

Is the case for an Aspie owned building there....yes it is.


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24 Mar 2013, 12:38 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Surely there must be the funds among us to purchase a land somewhere, and we surely cant do a worse job of running a country than the NT's have thus far.
I believe a small island in the Caribbean or the Pacific will suffice...;) -Just kidding!...I relish in the diversity of the societies we live in; although society has not always been kind to me or many others on the spectrum, there are still nice enough NT people in society that I would like to live amongst.


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24 Mar 2013, 1:24 pm

thomas81 wrote:
for one thing, our disability is caused by interaction with NT's. If we had a place where autistics were the majority, there we would no longer be 'disabled'. It would be a place to cultivate autistic culture, without fear of reprimand or judgement. I'm increasingly convinced that it is impossible to reach a happy symbiosis with NT's purely because they outnumber us 100 to 1. Due to those odds, there is no onus on them to run things in a way that makes sense to us.


I doubt that just because you have the same disability you will get along with each other. Aspies can be judgmental of other aspies. And the higher functioning aspies would dominate the lower functioning ones. I don't think it would be much different from the society we live in now.

And the tax. A lot of aspies are on disability benefits. So the tax rate should be very high for those who can work to support those who cannot.



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24 Mar 2013, 2:39 pm

Yuzu wrote:
And the tax. A lot of aspies are on disability benefits. So the tax rate should be very high for those who can work to support those who cannot.


Am I reading the above as requiring a theoretical Aspie governmental entity (of some sort) to accept a benefits decision by another government, and subject others to a "very high" tax rate to pay for them?

Without getting too deep into economics and politics, why on WrongPlanet would anyone agree to this deal?


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24 Mar 2013, 3:06 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:
Yuzu wrote:
And the tax. A lot of aspies are on disability benefits. So the tax rate should be very high for those who can work to support those who cannot.


Am I reading the above as requiring a theoretical Aspie governmental entity (of some sort) to accept a benefits decision by another government, and subject others to a "very high" tax rate to pay for them?

Without getting too deep into economics and politics, why on WrongPlanet would anyone agree to this deal?


I believe few people would agree to that. That was my point.

Or if we agree to the OP's theory that aspies' disability is caused by interaction with NTs, in an aspie nation there will be no disability and all aspies will be fit to work all of sudden. But we all know that's highly unlikely.



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24 Mar 2013, 3:35 pm

Yuzu wrote:
AgentPalpatine wrote:
Yuzu wrote:
And the tax. A lot of aspies are on disability benefits. So the tax rate should be very high for those who can work to support those who cannot.


Am I reading the above as requiring a theoretical Aspie governmental entity (of some sort) to accept a benefits decision by another government, and subject others to a "very high" tax rate to pay for them?

Without getting too deep into economics and politics, why on WrongPlanet would anyone agree to this deal?


I believe few people would agree to that. That was my point.

Or if we agree to the OP's theory that aspies' disability is caused by interaction with NTs, in an aspie nation there will be no disability and all aspies will be fit to work all of sudden. But we all know that's highly unlikely.


I'm not sure I'd read that into the OP's posts. There is a divergence of views on that subject, but even the "social exclusion" theory does'nt go so far as the bolded comment above. Your earlier post suggests that you view AS as a "disability" in and of itself, so your milage may vary.


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