are whales, dolphins, porpoises, elephants people?

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eric76
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14 Mar 2013, 5:05 pm

If whales were all that intelligent, they would warn each other about whaling ships and stay away from them.



CaptainTrips222
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17 Mar 2013, 12:55 am

Bananas are people. Cucumbers aren't intelligent enough to be considered human, but they still have intrinsic value.



ruveyn
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17 Mar 2013, 6:49 am

eric76 wrote:
If whales were all that intelligent, they would warn each other about whaling ships and stay away from them.


And there may be just such whales. Perhaps they are among those whales who have not been harpooned.

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The_Walrus
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17 Mar 2013, 8:36 am

All life has intrinsic value.

Sometimes the intrinsic value of a living organism is outweighed by the instrumental value of that organism once it is dead. For example, carrots.

Sometimes the intrinsic value of an organism is outweighed by the intrinsic value of another organism, meaning that one is chosen over the other. An example is a virus (leaving aside whether they are actually alive) or bacterial colony that has infected a human and is causing disease. Another example is a foetus that could ruin the life of the mother if it is born. Another example is a rabid dog that threatens to infect another dog.

I think many great apes, cetaceans, and perhaps other animals value their continued existence and lack of pain as much as humans do. As a result, we should value them equally with humans.



eric76
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17 Mar 2013, 12:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:
eric76 wrote:
If whales were all that intelligent, they would warn each other about whaling ships and stay away from them.


And there may be just such whales. Perhaps they are among those whales who have not been harpooned.

ruveyn


Nice observation.



Tensu
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17 Mar 2013, 9:38 pm

eric76 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
eric76 wrote:
If whales were all that intelligent, they would warn each other about whaling ships and stay away from them.


And there may be just such whales. Perhaps they are among those whales who have not been harpooned.

ruveyn


Nice observation.


I heard one of the inspirations for Moby Dick was a story that somewhere off the pacific coast of the Americas a Sperm Whale rammed a whaling ship and sank it. The story goes that the whalers did not see it coming at first, it recognised them as a threat and attacked preemptively.

Of course no idea if the story is true or not. It begs the question of if the whale sank the ship, who recounted the events? I hear it wasn't uncommon for newspapers to make stuff up at the time.



ruveyn
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18 Mar 2013, 8:39 am

Tensu wrote:

I heard one of the inspirations for Moby Dick was a story that somewhere off the pacific coast of the Americas a Sperm Whale rammed a whaling ship and sank it. The story goes that the whalers did not see it coming at first, it recognised them as a threat and attacked preemptively.

Of course no idea if the story is true or not. It begs the question of if the whale sank the ship, who recounted the events? I hear it wasn't uncommon for newspapers to make stuff up at the time.


Wait until a whale torpedos a Sea Shepherd boat.

ruveyn



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18 Mar 2013, 10:21 am

CSBurks wrote:
No, I don't think so.

Elephants and Bottlenose Dolphins have some level of self-recognition using the mirror test.

The lower hominids have definite level of self-recognition, so they are probably sentient, but not sapient.


Other whales and dolphins have passed the mirror test as well, it isn't limited to Bottlenose.



eric76
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18 Mar 2013, 4:04 pm

From http://articles.latimes.com/1989-08-22/news/mn-912_1_whale-attacks:

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The sailboat was on automatic pilot, and the two Butlers were asleep down below. They were awakened by a thump, then another. William went topside, and that's when he first saw the whales in the moonlight. Dozens of them, he remembers. Maybe even hundreds. Whales as far as he could see.

...

Then, one of the whales hit the boat hard on the port side. There was a crunch, and it sounded awful. William could hear water gushing. He raced below. Find the leak! Fix it!

He began turning things over, pulling up the floorboards. But, in just a few minutes, there was water up to his waist.

...

And then the Butlers were adrift in the vastness, off on what would become a 66-day odyssey in the warm seas west of Central America. They were found only last Saturday by a Costa Rican coast guard boat on a routine fisheries patrol 13 miles from land.



thomas81
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19 Mar 2013, 7:17 pm

the difference between humans and animals is that animals are not burdened by duty.

That's why it would be a mistake to lump them together.


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19 Mar 2013, 7:52 pm

I think it's absurd to consider animals as people. Legally and morally, human society should not afford animals the same rights it does to its own members. Many of what we consider human rights don't even apply to animals. But that doesn't mean we can go light a cow on fire for the heck of it. A creature does not need to be a "person" to be deserving of respect and moral consideration. When it comes to things like animal abuse and farm practices, we shouldn't be asking ourselves whether animals are people, or even how smart they are. All that matters is whether or not they feel pain.



thomas81
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19 Mar 2013, 7:55 pm

I think some humans should have their person status revoked.

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